Evolution Theory

[jayjaya29]

I think sith brings up a good point, saying that most of the time, creationists bash the evolution theory and they don't and can't prove anything about creationism.

[ArosaMike]

I don't have anything against religion at all. I do have a problem with supposed religious people trying to disprove something which has massive evidence with huge sweeping statements in an attempt to make money for themselves. All the stuff about mutations not being observed is rubbish. The reason we age is because our DNA mutates as it's copied thousands and thousands of times. That's mutation. Also....it's emerging that some people in Africa seem to have a resistance to AIDS which it would appear is due to a change in one of their chromosomes. This is one of the few places where natural selection is happening to Homo Sapiens.

With regards the does God exist argument....it's never going to be proved one way or another. Even if we found a way to bring back people from the dead it would still be argued that perhaps these people weren't fully dead and would therefore not have gone to heaven. It's just something that we will all find out for ourselves. I will make these point I made to my best mate (who is very strongly christian though):

*Heaven is supposed to be a fantastic place where all your dreams come true. If this is the case....(if you would just excuse the crassness of this....but I'm being honest here)....all I'd want to do is have a huge orgy with a lod of stunning women. This doesn't really work though, because this goes against what's written in the bible. So in that case....I couldn't do that.....which would be crap. Also....if you were in heaven for an infinite length of time....you could actually feasibly do absolutely everything an infinite number of times....which would be pretty shit. I don't know about you, but I'd get damn bored of shagging even if I could do it all the time with 10/10 stunners.

*Hell is supposed to be a bad place for bad people. If say you had to sit in a vat of boiling tar for eternaty, you would pretty much get used to it. It would hurt a lot, but it would become normal, so after 1000 years it wouldn't have the same effect. Furthermore....the point of pain is to warn of damage to the body. This damage may lead to death. IMO if there is no death....(how can you die again if you're already dead?) then pain becomes totally pointless. You would just get used to it (think of it as eating a lemon....horrible to start with....but if you had to eat 100, you'd get used to the taste). Also....I don't really see that it would be fair to group someone who had sex before they were married, or who divorced, with a mass murdurer or kiddy raper!

I know that anyone Christian will say that it's impossible to imagine heaven and hell and apply human values to it, and that's fine....but I don't believe it

I'm totally scientific. I believe in nature. It's a great coincidence that we're here and we should enjoy our short time in existance. IMO our ultimate meaning in life is just to reproduce (as is with any other living thing). There is no point to that other than to continue the species. There is no point as such to many things in life but we do them to further the human race. Racing a car is pointless, but we do it because we can and it's a challenge. This is IMO what life is....one big power struggle. We reproduce because we can and it furthers our supiriority over other animals.

[SHiFTiR]

all these talk of evolution....i dun really kno where it's coming from...but hopfully it's from someone with an extensive knowledge in both view points... i sometimes find ppl refusing evolution fer the wrong reason...

for me...theory of evolution is the greatest thing human ever came up with...so yay fer evolution.

[SHiFTiR]

Originally Posted by ArosaMike

This is one of the few places where natural selection is happening to Homo Sapiens.

um.....just to clarify to ppl that dunno the theory of evolution, natural selection acts on individuals and evolution acts on species/population. natual selection is one of the driving force for evolution. so as a whole, Homo sapiens can evolve, but as individuals we cant. theory of evolution says that there exist this differential survival and fitness (relative gene copies distributed thru birth or raising relatives' offspring) between phenotipically different organisms, and that gives raise to alternation in a population's phenotype frequency and eventually the population might speciate into new organisms.

As for mutation, it creates phenotypes which natural selecton can act on to create a differential survival and reproduction.

well this is in no way an effort to preach the theory of evolution, but to merely defend it. and really, this is no reason for the theory of evolution to be taken off textbook materials.

[Leppy]

There is this rock.
It looks like every other normal rock.
It created everything that we see today.
This rock is located at the centre of the moon.
This is true because I have a piece of paper that says it is so.



Prove me wrong.

[jeffy777]

Everyone has the right to believe what they want, but let's not mock others or poke fun at beliefs that differ from our own. That doesn't solve anything. Let's have some respect.

If you believe that this life and what we do now is all there is, then you better enjoy it while it's here, cause life as we know it is very fragile.

I personally believe in God and have a hope that goes beyond this life. However, I won't think any less of you if you see things differently.

If I were to lay all my personal experiences aside and the miracels I've experienced, I would still find it easier to believe in creation because even evolutionictic scientists admit that evolution is impossible and the universe is so incredibly complex: the chances that it all happened by accident are basically zero. Nature itself is a brainless "thing", so the idea that natural selection could propel itself forward and make intelligent decisions is hard for me to believe. In my mind, there has to be an intelligent designer.

But I won't go into debating this any further, becaseu like Swek said, I'm not really an expert. I believe what I believe, and I ask you to respect that. I won't make fun of you, and I trust that you will return the favor

[tranceshakeel]

Originally Posted by Leppy

There is this rock.
It looks like every other normal rock.
It created everything that we see today.
This rock is located at the centre of the moon.
This is true because I have a piece of paper that says it is so.


Prove me wrong.

That Is So Damn Lame !!!!!

What you say is that a big bang caused everything and life to occur, Why can u believe this prediction and not creationism, well I would say that the big bang theory is pretty much the same as saying that there is a rock in the centre of the moon controlling everything > Looking for the answer in the wrong places i would say !

What caused the big bang, no, no, FIRSTLY, what was it that blew up where did it come from, someone must have created it.
Where did matter come from, if you say that it created itself than that defies all of Science in itself so YES >>>> God created it !! Actually Science is a set of rules created by God to Govern matter !

Forces cant come from nowhere, when you talk about centripital force and the fact that large matter can attract smaller matter, you are not giving any solid reasons as to why it is happening, you just know it as a fact that it does. I'd say there has to be a power controlling all this !!

[///M]

No he's not.

He sounds like every religious person I have ever met, close-minded and ignorant of everything around them.

[zenkidori]

i know quite a few people who are very religious yet agree with evolution. the two are not mutually exclusive.

[tranceshakeel]

sorry i edited now to explain !!

[tranceshakeel]

Originally Posted by ///M

No he's not.

He sounds like every religious person I have ever met, close-minded and ignorant of everything around them.

I am not an extreme religious person but i am not ignorant of the surrounding, I do thank God for all he has given me and the rest of the humans.

Anyway I love Physics, and its my Favourite Subject but what hurts me is comments such as the one by Leppy. Not every Religious person takes everything for granted. Physics is great and explains a lot but what is not explained, I look upon God as the answer.

[bigfoot1942]

Originally Posted by ///M

No he's not.

He sounds like every religious person I have ever met, close-minded and ignorant of everything around them.

SHUT UP!

youre offending all religious people by your post. i dont think religion-bashing is what this thread was made for.

[bihus]

tranceshakeel, I agree with you that must have been some force that started the roullette. God isn't the same for all the people, so let's just call it a force, ...something.
But what I don't agree with religious people is that everything happens because of a divine force. Nor all the cerimonies and rituals. I don't have to pray and go to churches if I want to express my convictions.

[///M]

Originally Posted by tranceshakeel

Physics is great and explains a lot but what is not explained, I look upon God as the answer.

If everyone had the same thought process, we'd be living in caves.

Whatever can't be explained can be explained later with science. Simple as that. We couldn't explain the most basic forces that exist in nature, now it's taught in grade-level physics.

[Jostyrostelli]

Originally Posted by tranceshakeel

That Is So Damn Lame !!!!!

What you say is that a big bang caused everything and life to occur, Why can u believe this prediction and not creationism, well I would say that the big bang theory is pretty much the same as saying that there is a rock in the centre of the moon controlling everything > Looking for the answer in the wrong places i would say !

What caused the big bang, no, no, FIRSTLY, what was it that blew up where did it come from, someone must have created it.
Where did matter come from, if you say that it created itself than that defies all of Science in itself so YES >>>> God created it !! Actually Science is a set of rules created by God to Govern matter !

Forces cant come from nowhere, when you talk about centripital force and the fact that large matter can attract smaller matter, you are not giving any solid reasons as to why it is happening, you just know it as a fact that it does. I'd say there has to be a power controlling all this !!

Okey, but who created God? And why did he create earth or the whole solarsystem then, and not earlier or later? Can God be billions years of age?

I understand how you want to defend creatonism by saying the scientist don't have evidence (they have more evidence then you would have) but you haven't given us any evidence either.

[jeffy777]

No matter what side you take, you have to admit that some things can't be explained:

The creationist can't explain where God came from.

The evolutionist can't explain where the original matter came from or how life could spring from nothing. Nor can they explain how Natural Selection and Evolution could start on their own.

I personally find it much easier to believe in God. Life can't come from non-living matter and matter can't just appear. Something supernatural had to have happened. To me, the chances that God created the world are much more believable than the chances that man evolved from a primordial ooze that some how magicaly appeared and just happened to contain the elements needed to begin forming life and the conditions just happened to be right (people call the Bible a fairytale, but evolution is more outrageous to me, especially when scientists admit how impossible the chances are). I find it hard to believe how planet earth could just form on it's own and the perfect laws of physics could merely fall into place without an intelligent force guiding the process. I can't understand how something as complicated as the human brain or the eye could evolve from a one-celled organism, or from lifeless mattter to begin with. It doens't matter how much time is involved, it just seems unbelievable to me.

Others may find it hard to believe in God, but it makes much more sense to me that someone with supoernatural power created our universe. The complexity of everything is more than enough evidenxce for this. Common sense tells us that complexity can't come with out an intelligent designer. All the complicated things that we have designed as a race didn't happen by accident. Nature is extremely complicated, from the largest solar system to the smallest cell. Just one strand of DNA is enough to blow anyone's mind. Nature testifies of an intelligent designer.

I said earlier that I wouldn't debate, so I'll stop here beofre I upset anyone It's great when we can talk about these things like grown adults, but comments like //M's just kind of ruin the atmosphere.

[Jostyrostelli]

@ Jeffy: good points. I agree I can't explain, of course, but scientists don't have answers to everything either. But your point:

I can't understand how planet earth could just form on it's own and the perfect laws of physics could just fall into place without an intelligent force guiding the process.

Who says that it happend this way for the first time, maybe earth is so perfect because it is stable, if it weren't stable it wouldn't even excist now. Maybe there were 1.000.000.000.000 earth before but maybe some percentages of CO2 were not enough to sustain a balanced environment. I really believe that this could happen. We are all made out of the same materials, atoms, so is the whole universe...we are all one. So we must have gotten out of one.

At least that's how I think, with my little knowledge.

[jeffy777]

Josty your sig is hypnotizing my tired brain. I like watching that thing go round and round

Little knowledge, no: I know you are a very intelligent person and I enjoy hearing your thoughts.

If evlolution is true, I still can't see how earth or any other earth before it could form on it's own without an intelligent force directing the project and how life could enter it. Science says that life can't come from non-lving material and I believe that. So where did the life itself originate? It gets confusing, doesn't it? This is a real mind-boggling subject. I need to rest my weary brain (it's 3 AM here!!) BTW, I've basically just been thinking out loud in these posts and sharing thoguhts. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong or anyhting. Just rambling mostly

good night!!

[swek]

Still the question remains. If things/matter etc. can't just appear out of the nowhere but are created by a spiritual force, who cratead god ? If you refuse a scientific explanation, there must have been another inteligence behind it. A creator, even more powerful who himself has been created by an even mightier beeing (pretty much a infinite loop). This pretty much would mean that there would be infinite gods hence christianity would be wrong in one of it's most fundamental views. There's only one god.

[Jostyrostelli]

@Swek: Yap, same thoughts here.

@Jeffy: I understand what you're saying, a rock floating in the universe can't suddenly be alive and eat other rocks. But I do believe that certain combinations of gasses and or climates on a planet could cause life. Look what kind of climate there is on Jupiter or Saturn, that's not where life could evolve. The temperatures are not right, there are too many toxic fumes, and gravity is different from here. Earth has everything to let life evolve. It has temperatures that suit alot of creatures, it has water, oxigen, other valuable gasses, it has the sun and the moon who provide day and night and seasons.
So what if there once was this little bacteria who flew around happy in the universe and landed on Earth. It splitted itself and eventually there was a whole colony. And just like fish evolved into landcreatures, maybe bacteria evolved into little insects.
Maybe from insects to mice and rat, or whatever you call those prehistoric animals. A Ratosaurus if you like.

And then there's a question from you, most likely, why isnt' there life on other planets then? (Which we know of). Who says there isn't life on jupiter? We've never been there, and who says creatures have to be of flesh and blood? Maybe they are something in another dimension which we can't see? Maybe they are around us, invisible.

From my point of view there is alot more evidence for evolution then for creationism. Maybe because I grew up with scientific courses and it was taught me that way.

The main thing I wanna ask is: why can't there be evolution (life comes out of 'nowhere') when there can be creationism (a higher power makes something, with what? His hands? And as Swek said, who made the higher power?



Oh and I love my sig too