Fitna - An anti-muslim/Koran film released

[vyllu]

This thread was going to happen eventually, so I decided to make it now!

For those who don't know what this is about:
A Dutch politician by the name of Geert Wilders made a highly controversial and mostly angry film about the Jihad and the role of Muslims in Europe, and especially Holland.

More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_%28film%29
The film itself: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103

Watching this movie made me think. Not because I'm blue-eyed enough to take it for pure gold, but because it stirred up some remains of what I picked up years ago in school.

The number of Christians and perhaps more importantly, catholics is ever decreasing whilst the number of Muslims is increasing. Also Israel is receiving ever greater pressure from it's neighbors.

However one of the most important area for all these religions is still divided. I am of course talking about Jerusalem! The ancient city was taken from the "pagans" during the crusades and kept, until finally, the Israel state could be founded around it.

Those familiar with football (soccer) know that Israel is considered a part of the UEFA and therefore, Europe, not because of it's location, but for it's religion. And in the past decade not a week goes by when we don't hear of bloodshed between the occupants of Israel - the Jews and the Palestinians, because these two nations, these two religions cannot live under the same roof.

So far, largely because of the support of the US, the Israel nation has stood strong and both the Jews and through them the Christians as well have a foothold within Middle East. But what would happen, if one day, the Holy City would fall?
Would the country founded for Jews be taken back by the country supported by the Jews (by that I mean the US) and will the catholic countries of Europe join in? What about the protestant countries like Great Britain or Germany? Could this world be on the verge of another crusade?

Or what if things happen the other way around? What if the Muslim population in Germany slowly seize control of the nation and the Muslims in France for instance find a more gentle way of expressing their discontent than the riots a few years back?
What if the film was right, and Europe is slowly being taken over and our culture, the Western culture is being drowned? Could USA then be the beacon of Christianity and "common sense"? Or will they falter as well?

Is the Muslim religion a threat to "OUR" way of life, or is the western world strong enough to resist and/or absorb it? Are we facing a Jihad or a Crusade?

[anti-net]

So I watched this video, first off: Really? Do you have to use such sick and insensitive images, Not very nice!

This is video is extremely one-sided, however it is quoting from the Koran which was a book in a completely different time that couldn't be any further from our current culture. The big problem I have with religion is people who take those words as truth, as 100% true when 99% of it isn't logical, its a fairy tale, OK maybe some of the teachings will help you live a good life - cheating on your wife for one

But it doesn't mean its true, I mean what evidence other than the book that these deities actually exist? there's very little, and none of it is solid. The ten commandments for example might not be the word of God, but there still not bad rules to live by.

My concerns ain't that Islam is some how taking over, it is that religion is taking over, its no longer been kept in the Mosque or church but becoming very political and I don't like that, I don't just want religious freedom but freedom from religion!

Oh also, on a lighter note the Dutch MP who made this video has silly hair

EDIT: Also I think that this might be banned is awful, why? its criticising a religion, I get criticised all the time and no one gets banned! Freedom of speech - Sometimes your going to get offended, Grow up and live with it

[Suedschleife]

"He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed."
"Do not allow others to worship a different god. Conquer them and destroy their religious property"

Glad the Bible is so much more tolerant.

[Firecat]

And the Mexicans are taking over the United States...Is no place safe anymore?

The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a political one, not religious. Sure, religion is used to create support among the masses. But at the end of the day, it's really about land.

When you say Muslims "seize" control of Germany and France, are you speaking about it being done through a democractic process? And if countries were to take steps to ensure the preservation of their culture or, for lack of a better word, quintessential citizens...would that no be considered anti-democratic? Because to me the solution is quite simply, have a better immigration policy.

[MattD1zzl3]

Originally Posted by vyllu

But what would happen, if one day, the Holy City would fall?

Could USA then be the beacon of Christianity and "common sense"?

^-- Do you really belive this crap about "holy city" and "Beacon of Christianity"?

This middle-ages mentality of religion vs religion is just so funny. Like Muslim people are some weird foreign people that give you the heebie-jeebies, while you cower and plot with your fellow white Christians on how they are surely plotting to destroy you. Its hilarious.

[vyllu]

Originally Posted by MattD1zzl3

^-- Do you really belive this crap about "holy city" and "Beacon of Christianity"?

When I say Holy, I do not mean just for the Christians. The biggest problem there is is that the city is sacred to three different religions and unfortunately it seems these religions cannot coexist in this rather small area without friction.

I would by the way categorize myself as non-religious

Originally Posted by Firecat

When you say Muslims "seize" control of Germany and France, are you speaking about it being done through a democractic process? And if countries were to take steps to ensure the preservation of their culture or, for lack of a better word, quintessential citizens...would that no be considered anti-democratic? Because to me the solution is quite simply, have a better immigration policy.

Of course I don't mean an all out military invasion.

But about the immigration policy: that is a very tight line politicians have to walk on. For instance a debate couple of years back if Muslim girls should be allowed to wear their head scarfs in schools when all hats etc. are forbidden. And as a politician it is easy to see why to allow it, since it can bring you the support of an ever growing population, whilst still telling the rest of the voters that your decision was based on their religious and cultural backgrounds. And to be honest thats true as well, at least in my eyes.

[the infinite jar]

Originally Posted by vyllu

Could USA then be the beacon of Christianity and "common sense"? Or will they falter as well?

Am I the only one that found this bit at least a little funny?

[Adunaphel]

Geert Wilders is more full of shit than a tanker of manure. That is all I have to say about this lousy excuse for a film.

[argatoga]

I haven't seen it but I will comment never the less.

Originally Posted by vyllu

The number of Christians and perhaps more importantly, catholics is ever decreasing whilst the number of Muslims is increasing. Also Israel is receiving ever greater pressure from it's neighbors.

Most of the decrees is due to people becoming less religious, not becoming Muslim.

Originally Posted by vyllu

Those familiar with football (soccer) know that Israel is considered a part of the UEFA and therefore, Europe, not because of it's location, but for it's religion. And in the past decade not a week goes by when we don't hear of bloodshed between the occupants of Israel - the Jews and the Palestinians, because these two nations, these two religions cannot live under the same roof.

If I remember correctly most of the population of modern day Israel, or at least those who control things there, are from Europe. The fighting there is about the European Jews coming in and taking all the land (with British help of course).

Originally Posted by vyllu

So far, largely because of the support of the US, the Israel nation has stood strong and both the Jews and through them the Christians as well have a foothold within Middle East. But what would happen, if one day, the Holy City would fall?
Would the country founded for Jews be taken back by the country supported by the Jews (by that I mean the US) and will the catholic countries of Europe join in? What about the protestant countries like Great Britain or Germany? Could this world be on the verge of another crusade?

There wouldn't be another crusade. Some discussion in the UN about sanctions depending on how things go down. Most Western countries are pretty secular.

Originally Posted by vyllu

Or what if things happen the other way around? What if the Muslim population in Germany slowly seize control of the nation and the Muslims in France for instance find a more gentle way of expressing their discontent than the riots a few years back?

I don't see this happening. European countries have been clamping down on immigration for awhile, they will just do it more so. Also these Muslim immigrants will become Westernized after moving into a Western nation.

[watisdis]

Food for thought.

+ YouTube Video

Flame on...

[anti-net]

^ Damn Pat is getting angry these days, however I agree with him, Muslim culture must adapt to Europe, so they must accept freedom of speech (e.g. Cartoons) and expression (e.g. Homosexuals, Girls not dressed as ninjas).

[hype]

the move has been took of that page now.

[Cobol74]

This will end well.

[argatoga]

Originally Posted by hype

the move has been took of that page now.

Can you translate that for me?

[hype]

Originally Posted by argatoga

Can you translate that for me?

lol sorry.

The movie has been removed from the page you posted.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103


is that better?

[phuckingduck]

I think that for the most part, Islam/Muslims (Wihout being racist, Arabs) aren't really a problem. At least, not here in America as they are one of the most integrated and successful immigrant groups our country has seen. Definitely kickin the Irish's ass What I do see is that the most outspoken fringes seem to be larger and more radical than the corresponding fringes in Christianity. The primary problem is that the faith seems to lack the development that has been seen in Christianity and Judaism (apologies for how crude that sounds). Christianity and Judaism for the most part appear to have, and continue, to rethink their beliefs, while holding true to the foundations. Things like wearing different weaves of cloth being bad, and violence against non believers have fallen by the way side in most Christian populations. And the masses of these religions seem to accept that some people not only don't follow their particular denomination but may not accept their faith whatsoever. But the more radical elements of Islam not only have held true to their core tenants, but seem to be unwilling to flex on some of the things that Christianity has flexed on. And like radical Christianity, this filters back to the primary body of the religion.

I think, in the end, western culture will 'win' out. The radicals are just that, radicals. And for every person who attaches themselves to these radical ideologies, there is probably two who become a little bit more western.

Europeans: The Muslim population in most articles that I've read appears to be a sort of immigrant under class. High unemployment, radical second generation youth, very segregated population centers etc. Would you say that this is a fair assessment? And is this more an issue of poor immigration control leading to a large unemployed immigrant population and the classic example of large poverty leading to radical/violent/revolutionary tendencies?

For the record, I'm an atheist.