Fur.

[justin syder]

I don't mind using animal products, as long as the animal didn't have to suffer only because we care more about money.

OH NO, animals arent being treated HUMANELY!!

Next time I step on a roach I should ask if it would waive its animal rights so that I can kill it. Or next time a lion MAULS into a weak gezel maybe someone could bring that naughty feline into court.



I understand it might be wrong to "harm" animals but it is the way nature works, the stronger animals all the way down the food chain eat the weaker ones. A snake will swallow a mouse whole without killing it in a humane way.

[Ultra_Kool_Dude]

^ So bigger humans should be able to do whatever they want to you then?

[tloekke]

^^I think the point is as long as you don't know any better, like animals do, they are given some slack when it comes to the killing of other animals. But humans should know better....
Think of it like this, if a giant raccon was gonna wear your skin, wouldn't you rather he killed you quickly than skinning you alive?

[justin syder]

So bigger humans should be able to do whatever they want to you then?

Dont manipulate my post, you know what I meant.

Animals do what they have to do, not what they want to do. They kill the weaker animals to eat. Strong companies buyout or out perform their competition because of the nature of business, not to put ppl out of work for the hell of it.

I think the point is as long as you don't know any better, like animals do, they are given some slack when it comes to the killing of other animals. But humans should know better....
Think of it like this, if a giant raccon was gonna wear your skin, wouldn't you rather he killed you quickly than skinning you alive?

This is rediculous and some of you are oversensative. I have yet to hear or see about a sensible killing of an animal by another animal.

And just because we know better means we should treat them better, with rights?

HELLO!!! HUMANS HAVE RIGHTS, not animals.

It would mean that we stop testing on animals, stop killing them "unhumanely", which would cost more, and ultimately it would get the human race no where.

I dont think we do it to purposely instill pain and torment but the bottom line is this, WE ARE KILLING THE ANIMALS! What difference does it make if they are not treated nicely or not? They will be dead, to be eaten or used as a coat.

[justin syder]

Think of it like this, if a giant raccon was gonna wear your skin, wouldn't you rather he killed you quickly than skinning you alive?

I like how people bring up arguments that are unfeasible.

[pdanev]

HELLO!!! HUMANS HAVE RIGHTS, not animals.

I dont think you can compare human to wild animals. Thats why we use our mind (or at least most of us try to). Whats the big cost of stopping the skinning alive??? Why cant the animal at least be given a quick painless death??? Why does it have to be beaten in the head, kicked, smashed, tortured, skinned alive, and let to suffer from all that till death??? Why?

If you haven't seen the video footage, then do it. I dont think what's shown there is normal or is meant to be like this by nature...

[tloekke]

^^it's not an argument, it's a question, doesn't matter if there is no such thing as giant raccons, all it takes is a little imagination.... If there was, would you rather he killed you quickly before he took your skin or would you like to be skinned alive?

[ruuman]

Originally Posted by justin syder

I like how people bring up arguments that are unfeasible.

How about a Grizzer bear deciding you will be it's cubs main course. would you prefer it if you got ripped slowly limb from limb before you passed out from the pain. Or if it accidently broke your neck and you died instantly before the feeding frenzy.

Probably a better example for you is when thoose american workers got captured at the begining of the current Iraq war, were tied to the back of a truck, dragged though the streets and finally strung up on a bridge. I would have though they would have prefered to die before that was inflicted on them, I know I would.

I can see what your saying, but seeing most animals havn't invented the electic bolt gun desgined exactly for the purpose of killing animals quickly and cleanly, they really don't have much other choice then use teeth and claws to get the job done. Humans on the other hand have the option of being civilised and humane in what they do.

From a buisness point of view It also makes life a lot easier to skin things when there dead because it doesn't move, is easier to pre-drain and takes up less space. It doesn't really make much sense to me why they'd do it like this in the first place??

[justin syder]

It also makes life a lot easier to skin things when there dead because it doesn't move, is easier to pre-drain and takes up less space. It doesn't really make much sense to me why they'd do it like this in the first place??

That I totally agree on, why not chop the head off then skin it? I dont know why it is done that way too.

HOWEVER, for you guys with the argument basically asking for mercy for these animals I say this.

Ask a terrorist to kill their hostages BEFORE they be-head them. Ask a rapist to be as quick as possible and less voilent the next time he goes and rapes a woman, to do so would change nothing.

The victim would still be raped and terrorists would still kill a person. Sure it would "feel" better to die quicker but it is really out of your control.

IF some giant raccon or bear was about to tear me up I would fight until i could no longer and if then the bear or raccon would do as it pleases. This really makes no sense to be over protective of animals when humans are suffering far more and deserve more attention than some fox or other furry thing being skinned for a coat.

Where is the outrage for the starving North Koreans? The children fending for themselves in slums, begging for garbage to eat. Maybe some have seen that BBC video/expose thing.

Lastly, Im all for PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals)

http://wave.prohosting.com/antiar/peta1.html

http://www.ooze.com/pweeta/

http://groups.msn.com/PeopleEatingTastyAnimals

[ruuman]

This is obviously going to be a case of agreeing to disagree. But I'm not sure where your going with this...

Originally Posted by justin syder

Where is the outrage for the starving North Koreans? The children fending for themselves in slums, begging for garbage to eat. Maybe some have seen that BBC video/expose thing.

As far as I know there is outrage, just not for north korea kiddies but numerous other countrys though out the world. Hell just take a trip to London sometime and see the neglected people of the UK begging on the streets, eating crap from bins.

I probably feel more strongly about this problem than killing animals humanely. Mostly because in my country it shouldn't happening, that what I pay my taxes for!!

[Jostyrostelli]

Justin, if you think one problem is more important than the other, doesn't mean the other doesn't exist.

HELLO!!! HUMANS HAVE RIGHTS, not animals.

The reason why I won't digg into this thread.

One thing: Some people said I was hypocrite because I drink milk and am against fur, but negelecting other lifeforms and it's suffering because you think you are superior is just really....

[Ultra_Kool_Dude]

Can everyone agree on this to set this issue to rest?

Killing animals is alright (for a purpose), but causing them unnecessary pain is wrong.

Everyone agreed?

[Jostyrostelli]

Sure that was what I was trying to say, also hurting animals isn't better than hurting people..

[bone]

check this, not about fur, but it fits in the discussion

http://www.brightcoop.com/livehaul/ez_catch.mov

[justin syder]

Can everyone agree on this to set this issue to rest?

Killing animals is alright (for a purpose), but causing them unnecessary pain is wrong.

Everyone agreed?

I agree to that. But if the only way to get the fur is to skin the animal then thats the way it will be done.

Another thing to add, we really dont know a thing about why these fur handlers do the things they do, there could be a good reason, all we see is that they take the fur while the animal is alive and assume the worst. We should really take into account that we are looking at this mainly from one side.

[Jostyrostelli]

Originally Posted by justin syder

I agree to that. But if the only way to get the fur is to skin the animal then thats the way it will be done.

Another thing to add, we really dont know a thing about why these fur handlers do the things they do, there could be a good reason, all we see is that they take the fur while the animal is alive and assume the worst. We should really take into account that we are looking at this mainly from one side.

I don't care what the other reason is, it's bad anyway, there is no reason to let an animal suffer IMO. Maybe you care more about cheap clothes and don't care about animals but I don't.

Name one reason why it isn't a bad thing to skin the animals alive and let them die a horrible death?

One good reason..

[///M]

It's surprising that we're arguing the treatment of these animals, rather than arguing the concept of WEARING fur in the first place. You cannot equate human being's vanity to an animal's need to survive by eating prey. In this day, we don't need fur to survive. I could understand if some cultures require fur as a means of warmth, due to the lack of synthetic fibers, but I don't understand why some pompous, stuck up broad needs to wear fur.

Don't try and equate killing animals for fur to killing animals for food. Whether it's done humanely or inhumanely, killing a living, breathing animal for fur is heartless and has no purpous. I also have issues with inhumane practices in slaughterhouses, but that's an issue were the method of killing needs to be addressed, not the practice of eating an animal.

[justin syder]

It's surprising that we're arguing the treatment of these animals, rather than arguing the concept of WEARING fur in the first place. You cannot equate human being's vanity to an animal's need to survive by eating prey. In this day, we don't need fur to survive.

That is your personal but Im sure you know that people have been hunting and killing animals for many uses since humans were able to hunt and kill them.

Surely we have alternatives instead of wearing a fur coat but it doesnt mean that a fur coat is useless or is something used for a persons vanity. After all, most coats nowadays have those goose down feathers. How do they get all the feathers for those coats? Im also sure most anti animal people here probably have a North Face jacket or coat.

I do and its great, but a fur coat could probably create more warmth. They are a bit expensive and dont suit my taste.

Don't try and equate killing animals for fur to killing animals for food.

Shelter, warmth are needs as well.

Whether it's done humanely or inhumanely, killing a living, breathing animal for fur is heartless and has no purpous.

So wearing gator shoes (alligator) or leather jackets is also wrong. If you are going to be so anti fur then you have to be against most products which use animals for means other than food. Many products YOU probably use have some sort of link to an animal.

I also have issues with inhumane practices in slaughterhouses, but that's an issue were the method of killing needs to be addressed

I just cant take this argument seriously, farmers and people that take care of animals for food give them the best treatment, make sure they have plenty to eat and are treated humanely. For them to be treated unhumanely before they die makes no sense! THEY WILL DIE! So they suffer, that is life. We need them for food, other things too, not to debate about writing up an animal constitution.

I don't care what the other reason is, it's bad anyway, there is no reason to let an animal suffer IMO. Maybe you care more about cheap clothes and don't care about animals but I don't.

Im sure you have a leather belt or jacket or goose down filled coat in your house. If you feel this strongly you might as well ban animal products in your life because there really is no point in being so protective of these animals then biting into a Big Mac later during the day.

Also, attacking me and my opinion really doesnt help your cause.

Im gonna smell my leather belt and go into my freezer and look at the lovely meats I have.

[CanadianLoonie]

^And go over to your nearest Benz dealership and enjoy the comfort of leather seats!

[Jostyrostelli]

Justin. I wasn't attacking your opinion, just trying to reply.."you" was more in general..

Reply: Í am not against animal products (Like I said about 2/3 times now) I am against animalproducts that have been taken from animals in an inhumane way!

AFAIK the chicken and cows in Holland are treated good, so leather doesn't bother me here, they don't skin the cow alive and leave it on the ground.
Here in the Netherlands you can buy two types of meat like chicken, one where the chicken walked free outside and 'enjoyed' nature, or where it was put in a tiny cage and was supposed to lay eggs all day.

I always buy the biological food, so I don't have any problems with that.

I suggest you read my other posts too, cause I said this before a few times..