Great article on "gun culture"

[Scott]

Well, I do not think I could have said this any better!

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=041907D

[swek]

wrong section.

[zenkidori]

Good article, this part is particularly interesting:

He also neglected to mention Australian government figures that show five years after the Port Arthur-inspired gun crackdowns, homicides had climbed 3.2 percent, assaults had gone up 8.6 percent, and, astoundingly, armed robberies had soared 45 percent. Crime rates remain high in Australia despite the confiscation of hundreds of thousands of firearms, and gun bans.

[tigger]

Excellent article. I remember reading a similar one about the surge in violence in the UK, I wish I would've saved it. The other side to the argument around the VT shooting is a movement to allow conceal and carry on campus (if it's already allowed in the state).

[hokiethang]

Originally Posted by tigger

Excellent article. I remember reading a similar one about the surge in violence in the UK, I wish I would've saved it. The other side to the argument around the VT shooting is a movement to allow conceal and carry on campus (if it's already allowed in the state).

FYI, CWP's are available in VA. There are restrictions on where you can carry it (no federal or state buildings, no local government buildings if prohibited by the locality, no place that serves alcohol, anywhere expressly prohibited by the owner, schools, etc...). The CWP test here in VA is a 12 hour class, followed by a written exam and a shooting exam. There's also various levels of law enforcement approval before you are allowed to carry a concealed weapon.

[ryosuke]

i'd really love to see this concealed carry on campus because that would lead to some nice everybody vs. everybody deathmatch in no time.
although i suppose that would make corporate driven right wing think tanks, like the one this author works for, suggest that teachers would need grenade launchers and mounted anti aircraft cannons in order to keep their classes in check.

[zenkidori]

yeah, because all of that is totally realistic...oh wait

I love how people who don't own guns think that the second you get one you need/want to kill someone. get a fucking clue.

[tigger]

Originally Posted by ryosuke

i'd really love to see this concealed carry on campus because that would lead to some nice everybody vs. everybody deathmatch in no time.

Yeah, just like in the movies! That might happen is there is a campus somewhere full of guys like Cho, but I think that's a little unlikely. Like zenkidori said, gun ownership does not turn you into a psycho. If Cho didn't have guns he would've gone bat shit anyway. Like the guy in Germany (I think?) who made a flamethrower, pike and mace and went and killed some teachers.

[nomix]

Originally Posted by zenkidori

yeah, because all of that is totally realistic...oh wait

I love how people who don't own guns think that the second you get one you need/want to kill someone. get a fucking clue.

Please don't ignore the fact that there are people who would do just that.

And please remember, that you usually start college roundabout the 20 year old mark. You are still quite immature, you're still easily provoked.

Please don't tell me there's the slightest possibility someone will get really angry and take out their gun to shot someone, rather than punching them in the face?

Come on, don't ignore it. Most people won't do it, the overwhelming majority won't. The EXTREME majority won't. But there might just be that one student who does it.

Even if there's small possibilities of controling that no one takes a gun on campus, the fact that it is prohibited, means that QUITE A LOT of people won't take them to school.

Yes, there is a slight possibility that someone might have stopped the slaughter if they had a gun. How many campuses experiences masacres every year? At most, maybe two-three, normally less, I think?

How many colleges, high schools, universities and other educational institutions are there? The chance of something like that happening isn't all that big, and arming students won't make any difference in 99,9999 percent of the time, if you get my point.

I won't argue that the US of A should ban all handguns, firstly, I know that won't happen, secondly, it might not make any difference, since there's so many guns lying around.

But schools and guns do not match.

[Blind_Io]

First of all, a gun doesn't make you want to kill someone, Nomix, you already are the type of person to fly off the handle and attack someone before you get the gun. That means that there are usually warning signs in the form of arrests or psychiatric care.

You may start college at 18 or 19, but there are still age restrictions on firearm ownership, CCP, and even the purchase of ammo. Hell, when I was playing paintball I had to show ID to buy ammo.

There is the chance that someone will get "really angry" and take out their gun, but I can tell you that most people change when they are around a firearm. Shooting, and especially carrying one, is an incredible responsibility and the weight of that pistol feels like a lead bar. You always know that it's there and you know that you have the ability to end a life. That is not taken lightly and every CCP holder I know acts this way. If it's someone I know I can tell if they are carrying that day by the way they act, even if I can't see the gun. They are much more alert to their surroundings and typically more serious. It's an incredible responsibility. Even the most jovial and carefree people I know turn into very cautious people when the guns are out.

Yeah, it means that everyone who has a sense of responsibility will not bring their guns. Only nutters would violate that law. Violation of a "gun free" zone can be a felony in some states, which means you can't have guns. No gun owner will risk that, first of all firearms are expensive and secondly many gun owners have "heritage guns" that have been passed down from fathers, grandfathers or even farther back.

That is very true, but unless you are going to search every car and make every student go through a metal detector those laws are impossible to enforce. Isn't it interesting that most these massacres happen in schools and government buildings where guns are banned? You never hear about a massacre at a sporting good store or a Macy's because there are no laws banning firearms there. These people may be crazy but they aren't that crazy. They choose schools and government buildings for a reason: they know no one will shoot back. That means they can kill more people before the authorities show up

You have things backwards in my opinion. It's the lack of guns that is partially responsible for the shootings. I know, it sounds like I'm the nutter now, but I don't think it's a coincidence that these attacks always seem to happen where the people are prohibited from carrying.

[nomix]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

You have things backwards in my opinion. It's the lack of guns that is partially responsible for the shootings. I know, it sounds like I'm the nutter now, but I don't think it's a coincidence that these attacks always seem to happen where the people are prohibited from carrying.

Well, if you were a nutter, was in college, felt abused by the other students.. where would you go?

[Blind_Io]

Where ever I was least likely to get shot while on my rampage. School is a good place for that.

[nomix]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

Where ever I was least likely to get shot while on my rampage. School is a good place for that.

If you were a nutter. The reason why people do these shootings on schools, is that the various injustices they claim to be subjected to, with or without validity, happens. This is were the "assholes" are.

[Blind_Io]

All the more reason to let people defend themselves.

People in this kind of mindset are unpredictable and see personal slights in everything. I really think that the reason they tend to fixate on government buildings and schools is because they know there are no guns there. This guy was not totally off his gourd, he chained the doors to prevent escape and keep the police out, that shows a certain degree of planning and forethought. I'm sure that if there was a good chance of someone giving him a .45 cal lobotomy 10 feet inside the door he would have picked a different, softer target. What if there were no softer targets? Either this might not have happened or he would not have had the chance to kill over 30 people because someone would have a .38 in her purse and put him down.

[BlaRo]

Originally Posted by nomix

If you were a nutter. The reason why people do these shootings on schools, is that the various injustices they claim to be subjected to, with or without validity, happens. This is were the "assholes" are.

It's where you're least likely to encounter another person with a gun, since they're banned from campuses. Like Blind said.

Lots of people, all unarmed, in tight quarters...if you're a nutter like Cho, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

[FATMOUSE]

Giving college campuses guns would be risky.
Imagine if a shooter shows up. After the first retaliatory shots were fired, assuming they silenced the original attacker- if anyone then showed up to see what was going on, it would be well nigh impossible figuring out who was the bad guy and who the good guys were.

[tigger]

Originally Posted by FATMOUSE

Giving college campuses guns would be risky.
Imagine if a shooter shows up. After the first retaliatory shots were fired, assuming they silenced the original attacker- if anyone then showed up to see what was going on, it would be well nigh impossible figuring out who was the bad guy and who the good guys were.

A good point, but that is a possibility with any shootout that the cops intervene in. At least with a college there is a much better chance for witnesses to identify the original shooter. And anyone with a CCP would know to instantly comply with the cops.

OR do you mean the potential for a second CCP holder to intervene? That could indeed be tricky. Hopefully they would have the presence of mind to communicate.

[Blind_Io]

Umm, once the initial shooter is taken out the CCP holder would probably put his weapon away or adopt a defensive stance with his firearm lowered. Chances are there would be witnesses and any other CCP holder would see that the person who shot the perpetrator was not threatening others.

If the cops show up the CCP holder would obey commands because s/he is a law abiding citizen. In reality the chance of this happening is very slim.