Guillermo Habacuc Vargas - "Artist"

[Momentum57]

Originally Posted by tigger

BlaRo if I saw some kid walking around campus in a gas mask I wouldn't be able to do anything but laugh and call him an attention whore. Nevermind that he'd probably wind up getting the hell beaten out of him by some Aggies or Construction Science majors .

I was going to wear a gas mask during a battle of the bands concert in High School. The administration demanded I take it off. Mind you it was like 3 weeks after 9/11 and some kid freaked out at some white powder that turned out to be sugar from a donut thinking it was anthrax. We were disqualified for profanity, then thrown out of the building and threatened to be suspended if we didn't leave the property. The crowd was screaming for us to play and calling the admin a fascist.

[emil_t]

did animal protection had a say on this ?

[Donington]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

He paid a couple of kids

He's gone too far

[Blind_Io]

Originally Posted by Momentum57

I really hate to play devils advocate on this one but here it goes:

Why do you care what happens to this dog. It is just an animal. Don't give me that inhumane crap, death is death. You gas them, or starve them, or snap their necks, they are going to die. I like dogs I really do, as pets, just not equals.

Ever think about the message the artist is try to send about Nicaragua. Listen to you all worried about the dog but not one of you have thought "Shit, I care more for a dogs suffering than Nicaragua these days"

Not to say that you should that is their problem; that they have high unemployment, an economy that is shit, and no political power with their neighbors.

Think about it this way think about your emotions, validate them, and walk on.

First of all, your richtext privileges are hereby revoked.

Secondly, it's needless suffering. This type of behavior typifies the Antisocial Personality. Does the death or suffering of this dog have any direct and quantifiable affect on me? No. Does the fact that a human being would do this to an animal that is unable to act to protect itself turn my stomach? Yes. Is it wrong to torture animals for entertainment? Yes.

Most importantly, the most sickening thing about this incident is that a parade of well-to-do socialites paid money to come in and look at a starving dog tied to a wall and marvel at what it says about society. The irony is that their inaction and lack of outrage at the cruelty they witnessed said more about their society than the artist's willingness to torture an animal for profit and entertainment. By your own argument, everyone and everything is going to die eventually so why not shorten the time line a bit? I mean, that kid in the street is going to eventually grow old and die so why should I not hit him with my car? In the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter, does it? There are over 6 billion people on this planet and our whole species is here and gone in a blink, what's one poor kid in Richmond?

The reason this pisses me off is because that's what makes me human. Our humanity is not so easily quantified, but it is exhibited in how we react to things like this; an injured person, a starving dog tied to a wall, a tortured animal. It is our distaste for it, our outrage and our ability to comfort that makes us human. Those who don't have this ability are severely disturbed individuals with any one of many psychological disorders.

[Momentum57]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

Most importantly, the most sickening thing about this incident is that a parade of well-to-do socialites paid money to come in and look at a starving dog tied to a wall and marvel at what it says about society.

Don't think that people paid money most shows through a gallery are free in hopes that you will buy something. This type of a display is to draw people who more often would not go to a art show. Just because you go to art shows does not mean you are an elitist socialite.

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

The reason this pisses me off is because that's what makes me human. Our humanity is not so easily quantified, but it is exhibited in how we react to things like this; an injured person, a starving dog tied to a wall, a tortured animal. It is our distaste for it, our outrage and our ability to comfort that makes us human. Those who don't have this ability are severely disturbed individuals with any one of many psychological disorders.

I am pretty sure that what makes us human is an opposable thumb, the ability to make sialic-acid, and 50,000 generations of development. Society is what makes us react to things like this if we could we would act on pure self interest. Admit it you want to rape, steal, murder and fuck the body just for a laugh.

[Twerp128]

Originally Posted by Momentum57

Admit it you want to rape, steal, murder and fuck the body just for a laugh.

No. . . Just no, legitimate people don't feel the desire to do those things. Normal people have respect for their fellow human beings basic human rights.

I'm all for the opposing perspectives. Trust me I've been at the butt end of the whole Scientology protest thing. I just don't see a defense for this artist though. To starve a dog, that's a pretty scumbag thing to do. Even hunters have reverence for the animals they kill. This guy obviously was in it just for himself, he didn't give a shit.

[Momentum57]

Originally Posted by Twerp128

No. . . Just no, legitimate people don't feel the desire to do those things. Normal people have respect for their fellow human beings basic human rights.

legitimate you sound like those girls asking for paternity. Honestly what are legitimate people and what are their feelings. You have never stood behind some couple just flipping through screens at the redbox and thought if you expose yourself they will freak out and you could get a movie and walk away.

[airmenair]

Originally Posted by Momentum57

legitimate you sound like those girls asking for paternity. Honestly what are legitimate people and what are their feelings. You have never stood behind some couple just flipping through screens at the redbox and thought if you expose yourself they will freak out and you could get a movie and walk away.

Not going to address any of your points because honestly it doesn't matter. I'm just glad I am not you. You must lead a pretty miserable life (which I'm sure you will contest) with outlooks like that.

[Blind_Io]

Originally Posted by Momentum57

I am pretty sure that what makes us human is an opposable thumb, the ability to make sialic-acid, and 50,000 generations of development. Society is what makes us react to things like this if we could we would act on pure self interest. Admit it you want to rape, steal, murder and fuck the body just for a laugh.

Physiologically the opposable thumb makes us Homo Sapiens, however it is our creation of a complex society for ourselves that defines us as people. We are socialized to respond to certain situations within a range of socially acceptable behavior, and that is my point here. The behavior of this "artist" lies outside the socially acceptable range. The fact that we have the ability to control those primal impulses, to delay the gratification of our Id and develop the balancing force of the Super Ego is what sets us apart. We are a social creature and would not have survived independent of each other; we depend on groups for our physical survival and mental well being and that means that the members of that group must follow certain guidelines to protect the whole and ultimately protect themselves. You see, by developing socialized responses we are, in fact, protecting ourself and in a way acting selfishly.

This "artist" has deliberately done something that is not within the range of socialized behavior. The same is true of the student who allegedly artificially inseminated herself to induce miscarriages in the name of "art." They are hypocrites, acting outside the acceptable range of socialized behavior while simultaneously trying to integrate that aberrant behavior into the acceptable social range of behaviors by calling it "art" and "fee expression." By doing so, they are no longer making the commentary of society they started to; if they succeed in being accepted as "artists" and their "art" is brought into the social norms then they are no longer shocking. They cease to be on the outside of society looking in and creating a social statement and simply become integrated into the society they are trying to impugn. Either way, they loose. Only a fool would attempt such a folly.

Do I have those urges? Of course, we all do. Delaying that gratification to a socially acceptable time and outlet is why I'm not in prison and why we don't have anarchy. Those who can't control these urges are antisocial or "sociopaths" if you want to use an older term.

[Momentum57]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

This "artist" has deliberately done something that is not within the range of socialized behavior. The same is true of the student who allegedly artificially inseminated herself to induce miscarriages in the name of "art." They are hypocrites, acting outside the acceptable range of socialized behavior while simultaneously trying to integrate that aberrant behavior into the acceptable social range of behaviors by calling it "art" and "free expression."

Wow i really would love to hang out with that artist who artificially inseminated herself. She sounds like she has a good sense of humor and I bet she love quiffing and sex farts. So funny and orgasms are so much better when your laughing.

I am happy that you guys have seen its our ability for complexity that makes us human and not our emotions.

[No Boss]

For someone who posted this in the religion thread:

Originally Posted by Momentum57

Make fun of the bible all you want the fact is you have some of the best stuff to base TV Movies and books off of and some good ideas too.

Do not murder

Do not steal

The more you practice theses the happier you become

You seem pretty cool with someone killing something. Sure, I went to Catholic school so I know the 10 Rules pretty much pertains to only humans, but killing is killing. A life is a life, plain and simple, at least is my book. Is it worse to kill a human or a dog? It depends. What if the dog is Leona Helmsley's and is worth $12m, and the human is homeless without a family to support? Which is going to have a greater affect on society when they die? I dunno...

Whatever, we can argue all day about crap like that and we'll never get anywhere. My question is WHERE THE FUCK IS PETA OR THE A.L.F. DURING ALL THIS?!?! They stick their smug faces into every little animal related occurrence, and yet I have heard nothing about them being interested in this? They piss me off more than anything.

[JipJopJones]

Originally Posted by fbc

He should be chained to a wall and left to starve to death - what a fucked up individual, feel so sorry for the dog.

As I was going to say....

We should chain him to a wall and call it art. Die by his own hands (some what)

[hansvonaxion]

Momentum57 has a point.

I remember as a child, watching some footage on the Vietnam war and they showed a horse stuck in mud that was going to die, my sis and I said "that's terrible". My old man pissed himself at the fact we didn't seem to give a crap about all the people we'd seen die up till that point.

We are all outraged at the death (has that been proven yet?) of a stray dog that was probably going to starve anyway, or be picked up by the pound and destroyed. Maybe if hippies were driving around in Priuses with "Free the dog" stickers then some people in this thread wouldn't give a shit any more.

Do I have those urges? Of course, we all do. Delaying that gratification to a socially acceptable time and outlet is why I'm not in prison and why we don't have anarchy. Those who can't control these urges are antisocial or "sociopaths" if you want to use an older term.

So its OK to torture, murder and rape so long as the timing is right? If you want to label everyone who steps outside the "social norm" or "socially accepted behaviour" as antisocial or a sociopath, there aren't going to be too many people left on the inside.

[Blind_Io]

Read my whole post and stop taking it out of context. We have basic impulses of sex and aggression - instead of acting impulsively on them in unacceptable ways we re-channel that energy to a different outlet. The urge to smash someone's face who bumps your cart in the store is the same aggression that drives someone in a basketball game.

I can't dumb it down any more, I'm already trying to condense over 100 years of psychological studies and theory into a few paragraphs for you. Read a book.

[hansvonaxion]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

Read my whole post and stop taking it out of context. We have basic impulses of sex and aggression - instead of acting impulsively on them in unacceptable ways we re-channel that energy to a different outlet. The urge to smash someone's face who bumps your cart in the store is the same aggression that drives someone in a basketball game.

I can't dumb it down any more, I'm already trying to condense over 100 years of psychological studies and theory into a few paragraphs for you. Read a book.

I did read your whole post. Those same outlets that some consider acceptable are considered antisocial by others. How do you even define what is socially acceptable behaviour? You're talking about different societies, and within each one, shifting sands. Is hunting OK? Fox hunting? Whaling? Bull fighting? Thats a good example, a sport that is not only condoned, its the National sport and involves a long, drawn out torture and killing of a bull and often "inhumane" killing of horses also. Is Spain a country of sociopaths?

You are talking about the repression of "primal urges", what does that have to do with what this guy did? I would wager that he got no joy from what he did, that there was no "urge" at play. He had an idea he wanted to convey and went about it in a deliberate and considered manner.

They are hypocrites, acting outside the acceptable range of socialized behavior while simultaneously trying to integrate that aberrant behavior into the acceptable social range of behaviors by calling it "art" and "fee expression."

No. One thing that has been shown is our hypocrisy, everyone crying over the ill treatment of a stray dog that was already ill treated. Calling for this guy to by tied up and starved to death! I'd say thats pretty unacceptable behaviour! Caring more about one stray dog in an art gallery than the people around the world being killed right now, tortured right now, persecuted, born into sexual slavery etc.

I don't why I post in these threads, its just mental masturbation, like most art these days.

Stop trying to "dumb it down" and make a decent argument.

[Twerp128]

I don't like how deep this thread has gotten. It hurts my head. I guess I just see it in black and white. The artist knowingly starved an innocent dog, for entertainment and personal gain. It was wrong, and he damn well knew it.

Originally Posted by hansvonaxion

Is hunting OK? Fox hunting? Whaling? Bull fighting? Thats a good example, a sport that is not only condoned, its the National sport and involves a long, drawn out torture and killing of a bull and often "inhumane" killing of horses also. Is Spain a country of sociopaths?

Let's take Bull fighting for example. In Spain it is tradition, their culture. The bull is not perceived as a victim but as an adversary. The bull is treated with respect, that's why bad matadors that fail to kill the bull in less then a couple blows are harassed off the arena. Let's also remember matadors are very much still in grave danger when they engage the beast. Many a great matador has been killed by the bull, and there are many bulls names that are made legends by their gorings. It's is cruel but there is a level of reverence for the animal. They don't fight bulls for the sake of killing. Just like we don't hunt for the sole purpose of killing a deer.

[Blind_Io]

Hans, I can't bring you up to speed on all the psychology, but you don't think that torturing a defenseless dog is an act of aggression? That's one of the triad of early antisocial behaviors in adolescents and children - it's day one of Antisocial Behavior 101.

I'm not saying there is global consensus on what is socially acceptable and what isn't; what I said was societal norms. That means that we take into consideration the cultural backgrounds and norms of these different societies and cultures and examine individual behavior in respect to that cultural framework.

I have to dumb it down - even more in fact. I'm now back to Psychology 101. There is no way I'm going to write an entire text book here on the history of psychodynamic theor