Gun Control doesn't bloody work!

[Blind_Io]

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/cri...cle1932741.ece

Birmingham city centre is the country's "gun capital", according to the findings of a comprehensive survey of firearms offences by The Independent.

The next highest concentration of gun crimes is found in Manchester city centre, with areas of Cleveland and south London also appearing in the top 10. The area with the lowest level of shootings and firearms incidents in England and Wales is west Norfolk, followed by two areas of Northamptonshire.

The findings came as the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) met in Birmingham yesterday to discuss gun crime.

The firearms league table of the 43 police forces in England and Wales is the most detailed examination yet of regional gun trends. Using Freedom of Information requests, firearms figures in the year up to April 2005 were obtained for about 230 police command units - the smallest areas where gun statistics are available nationally - from all forces in England and Wales. The number of offences was divided by the population of each zone to give a gun ratio per resident. Offences include any incident where the weapon, including airguns, is fired, used as a blunt instrument against a person, or used in a threat.

In the top 10 most dangerous zones, there is one firearms incident for fewer than 1,000 residents. Central Birmingham has one incident for every 207 residents. This compares with the "safest" area, West Norfolk, where police officers recorded just one incident for every 66,133 residents.

While the survey is heavily slanted in favour of quiet, rural areas, it does provide a comparison between similar areas, such as cities. One of the most surprising findings is that despite Manchester, Nottingham and London's reputations for shootings and gun-related crime, the West Midlands Police have six out of the top 10 "worst" areas. This includes Aston, Hands-worth and Stechford in Birmingham, north Dudley, and east Wolverhampton.

Birmingham and the surrounding areas have suffered in recent years from a spate a gang-related shootings, most notoriously the drive-by murders of Charlene Ellis, 18, and Letisha Shakespeare, 17, and a race riot in Lozells last year, although a series of initiatives have seen the number of shooting incidents in the area drop by 14 per cent in the past year.

Nationally the trend for an increase in firearms incidents was reversed last year with a drop of 8 per cent in England and Wales, down to 10,267. In recent years the number of homicides caused by firearms has ranged from about 80 to 100 a year. It should also be noted that most firearms incidents do not result in injury - of the 75 recorded in central Birmingham there were 12 injuries and 33 cases of the weapons being used to threaten people.

Manchester lives up to its nick-name of "Gunchester" with the two halves of the city centre scoring second and third in the league table. Their combined score is 660 firearms incidents from a total residential population of about 380,000. Again gang and drug-related violence have been credited for the more serious shooting incidents.

Despite all the publicity Nottingham has received for fatal shootings in recent years the city comes 17th on the list, with one firearms incident for every 1,141 residents.

London has six boroughs in the top 20, with the highest, Southwark, at 10th place. Gun crime initiatives in the capital, particularly against gangsters involved in crack cocaine, are proving successful at driving down the number of firearms incidents, but there is growing evidence that younger people are arming themselves.

Cleveland has an unexpectedly high concentration of firearms incidents, with the police district of Langbaurgh, which includes the deprived areas of Grangetown and South Bank, coming ninth. It had one gun offence for every 926 residents.

At the opposite end of the scale the rural Western police district of Norfolk, which includes the towns of King's Lynn, Downham Market, Thetford, Dereham and Hunstanton, recorded four firearms incidents for a population of 264,533, or one offence for 66,133 residents.

The tables rely on police forces to provide information on firearms incidents as defined by the Home Office.

The worst

1. Central Birmingham: 75 gun crimes from a population of 15,551 = one per 207 people

2. North Manchester: 183 from 64,207 = one per 351 people

3. South Manchester: 477 from 316911 = one per 664

4. Thornhill Road (Handsworth - West Mids): 122 from 92,013 = one per 754

5. Queen's Road (West Mids): 129 from 97,976 = one per 760

6. Wolverhampton East (Wednesfield - West Mids): 163 from 124,480 = one per 764

7. Dudley North (Dudley - West Mids): 157 from 128,569 = one per 819

8. Langbaurgh (Cleveland): 149 from 138,000 = one per 926

9. Stechford (West Mids) 158 from 148,950 = one per 943

10. Southwark (London) 259 from 244,869 = one per 945

The safest

1. Western (Norfolk): 4 gun crimes from a population of 264,533 = one per 66,133 people

2. Daventry (Northamptonshire): 2 from 75,409 = one gun crime per 37,705

3. Wellingborough (Northants): 2 from 73,260 = one per 36,630

4. Norfolk (central): 10 from 311,006 = one per 31,101

5. North (Durham): 12 from 322,670 = one per 26,889

6. Northampton: 8 from 194,789 = one per 24,349

7. Western (North Wales): 8 from 183,666 = one gun crime per 22,958

8. Central (Cambridgeshire): 11 from 240,508 = one per 21,864

9. Poole (Dorset): 7 from 150,850 = one per 21,550

10. Central Hants (Hampshire): 8 from 165,919 = one gun crime per 20,740

So the criminals still have guns and the cops don't. Good plan.

[cvrefugee]

Every time I think of England and guns, "Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels" comes to mind...not sure why.

[hype]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/cri...cle1932741.ece





So the criminals still have guns and the cops don't. Good plan.

the police do get guns but only special units do, like the A.R.U(armed responce unit)

Anyway im glad to see nottingham off the top 10, even tho the shootings here are what normally get the media coverage.

[mmap]

I used to live in Wolverhampton... And the east side is such an area that this doesn't surprise me in the least.

And Yeah Birmingham is a "fun" place.

[ryosuke]

so there is more crime in city centres than in the country? breaking news, really.

that article has not much to do with gun control. gun control does work, you only have to compare the amount of gun related deaths per capita in the US with any european country to come to this conclusion.
gun control does not stop criminals from aquiring illegal weapons, but it makes it certainly more difficult. the amount of shootings going on in some US cities would be unthinkable of in any european city.
the statistic in that article has to be put into perspective. "75 gun crimes from a population of 16.000" does not mean that there have been 75 shootings, 75 deaths or 75 murderers. and in order to compare that to a country with less gun control like the US, you would have to come up with comparable data from a US city. i've searched a bit for gun related crime numbers, but couldn't find any.

however, the sheer amount of gun related deaths per capita in the US and in europe clearly shows that gun control has a strong effect. its just way easier to commit a crime with a gun than with a knife or something else. you can't control a crowd with a gun as good as with a knife.
you also have to consider unpremidated homicide. if guns are easily accessible, one is more likely to use them when in anger.

[No Boss]

Think this is a good time to post this. This is from my local Rock radio station, every friday at 5 this one DJ rants about what pisses him off from the past week. 90% of the time he is brilliant and makes great points.

This one is about fines in American football, the Amish school shooting, and gun control. For the gun control bit just fast forward to the last 1/4, but I'd reccomend listening to the whole thing. he's pretty spot on.

http://www.rock107.com/podcasts/logan/rant_10-6-06.mp3

[Peter3hg]

Woohoo, Manchester in 2nd and 3rd.
We should go for 1st and 2nd next time.

[zenkidori]

Originally Posted by ryosuke

you only have to compare the amount of gun related deaths per capita in the US with any european country to come to this conclusion.

right, because there is a clear line to be drawn and it wouldn't have anything to do with culture, or any other of 1000+ factors that come into play especially when talking about differences between countries, just gun control. Way to suck at inferences.

[ryosuke]

if your culture was such an issue, you should be even more in favour of gun control which makes it more difficult for certain people to get guns.

now honestly, whats easier, shooting someone or stabbing someone?

in germany we have about 400 homicides per year now, and another 400 unsuccesful ones and while the number of guns being used in these cases has dropped throughout the last 10 years, the percentage of unsuccesful homicides has risen.

[zenkidori]

You're pretty obviously uneducated on our country. More gun control in this country would pretty much guarantee that only legitimate users of firearms don't get them. Just because you don't share in a hobby or passion doesn't mean that others should be barred from practicing it responsibly. Guns are a part of American heritage and gun ownership is written in our constitution. Having a weapon was a necessity during our expansion and the gun culture grew from there. Most european countries are well used to the idea that "normal" people shouldn't have weapons and they've been kept from you(sometimes with disastarous results, if you know the history of your own country) for some time.

A lot of other issues can be addressed in order to curb any violent crime in America, not just gun related. Also, if you are ever bothered to look at crime statistics, most gun crime occurs with illegally purchased weapons anyway, so what would further restriction solve? How would more laws make illegal weapons more illegal? How about just upping the border patrol and shipping inspection? Police already destroy any illegal weapons they come into possession of, so tell me, how would taking guns away from law abiding citizens help at all? What, are you wanting to stop accidents? Then you better outlaw cars, toasters, bathtubs, playgrounds, knives, skateboarding, and pretty much everything.

I think a lot of europeans have a misconception that any person can get a gun here, and this is totally false. Aside from the federal restrictions imposed on every state, most states have thier own laws in addition.

[TomCat]

Exactly, there are over 20,000 gun laws in America, adding a couple more isn't going to deter anyone or anything. Also, banning guns in America is laughable. It's impractical and unconstitutional. There are probably more guns in America then people. 300,000,000 give or take. Banning guns? HA!

Another thing to take into consideration is America's homicide rates have been on a steady decline for many years, even though 2.5 million new firearms are sold into the public each year. More people, more guns, less murders. Imagine that. The implementation of Concealed Carry laws can be thanked, since the majority of States in America have adopted them and more continue to do so. Also, the vast majority of America's murders are committed by gang members against gang members. I'm not saying that makes it alright, but it does show where the problem is. Couple that with the fact that 80% of crimes are committed by repeat offenders and the problem becomes very clear. And it has little to do with Gun Control.

[jetsetter]

A majority of Americans do not want to ban the ownership of firearms and are willing to take the consequences of that decision. When I see a country with very strict gun control laws I see a country that is not willing to give a little to retain some personal freedom.

[hanasand]

I love Uranium, but my government wont let me have it.

WHERES MY PERSONAL FREEDOM?

Uh..

[jetsetter]

Originally Posted by hanasand

I love Uranium, but my government wont let me have it.

WHERES MY PERSONAL FREEDOM?

Uh..

Uranium is just a tad different than a firearm. And don't give me that bullshit line "Firearms have killed more people". People can deal with death that does not happen in huge numbers all at one time. Uranium can interfer with a person's rights all by itself, a firearm can't. Without a person to fire the weapon a gun is just a chunk of metal. Uranium does not need to person to be deadly.

[hanasand]

But people are crazy, hence guns are deadly.

Restrict restrict restrict....

[zenkidori]

Once again, a european who has NO CLUE what he's talking about wants to curtail the freedoms of someone halfway accross the globe.

Again I ask, why do you europeans even care?

Plus, nobody has chimed in with how more gun restrictions than what we already have would help anything at all. All I'm seeing is "Guns are bad mmmkay..."

[swek]

Let others have their opinion. You acting like you have it all figured and telling others they know nothing makes you look like a arrogant jerk in my eyes.

No, I have nothing to contribute to the actual topic. I just felt the need to post my observations on the discussion style some of you "cultivate" here.

[zenkidori]

They can certainly have thier opinion, but they aren't showing anything that backs up thier statements, so the validity of such an opinion can come into question. You can call the sky green all day long, but when the facts don't back you up, all you have is an uninformed and poorly thought out opinion.

In my opinion, telling people in another country that they know what's best for them even tho they don't live here or know anything about the cultue surrounding the issue is a lot more arrogant than a simple disagreement.

So are you just afraid of disagreements, or what?

[-Cpt. J.-]

This isn't the first forum I am a member of that talks about this subject and I'm pretty sure it wont be the last. But I just have one question. Why is it that some americans think that gun controll restricts my freedom? How the hell does owning a gun make you more free?

[hanasand]

Cpt. J I don't get it either.

I think some people have a kind of phobia against governments telling them what to do in any which way.
Even though it's for their own best.

But you ask why I care zenkidori. I care because I think you would have a better place to live with different gunlaws. Personally I see no point in owning a gun, if it's not for hunting purposes. For protection we have the police, lock on our doors and laws.

If you want to take protection in to your own hands that's fine, but offcourse you'll have to live with the consequences of so many people owning weapons.

But if the majority of Americans want it, and can live with it. Go ahead.
I'm just stating my view. And the next time we discuss anything related to Europe I'll ask you to stfu