Gun Control / Nerd Fight

[YF19pilot]

For those of you who feel it nessicary to follow up on the tragedy at Virgina Tech by going on about Gun Control, here's your thread. Stop shitting on the other one.

However, to make this a meaningful OP:

VT, like most colleges, don't allow weapons of any sort on campus. Esentially a "localized gun control zone". I've seen arguments pro and con about how gun control would have effected the outcome. This is what I have to say:

The responsible ownership of firearms is a right that should be held dear to us. A single student with a firearm could have diffused the situation, but that is not something we can easily speculate.

The shooter could still get weapons, even if by illegal means. There are arguments saying he would have less ammo, I disagree. An attack like this is by no means spur of the moment, and impulsive. This was planned. He would've had the time and ways to gather the nessicary ammo.

I know a lot of you feel that the second we allow someone to carry a gun, their brains go out the window, but here's the thing. In the US we can buy guns. We can carry guns. As it stands right now, just about anyone who wants to carry a gun, can carry a gun. Looser gun control laws really would not change significantly the number of firearms being carried by people on campus.

Besides, the fire arm industry has already implemented the greatest of gun control abilities: high prices. I know this sounds stereotype, but for the most part college student = poor.

So post your NERD RAGE here, and not in the other thread.

[superchevy]

ban knives in england since they have a knife crime epidemic there!
ban all fps games because they influence people to be violent!
ban heavy metal music because it turns people into sadists!
ban all candy because they rot your teeth!
ban all rollerskates because you can fall and break something!
ban all alcohol because it may turn you into an alcoholic or kill you!
ban all automobiles, planes, trains, and ships because you can crash and die!
ban "booing" and other taunts at sporting events because they hurt feelings!
ban razor blades because they can cut your face while shaving!
ban dogs because they bite and can carry rabies!
ban all pornography because it turns people into rapists!
ban cholesterol because it makes you fat!
ban islam because it creates terrorists!

[Bizness]

We have gun control in Canada, but it didnt stop it from happening here last year CLICk

[nomix]

Uhm, Nerd rage? Right.

Uhm, so, you think, that if more students walked around armed, that would mean a safer environment?

You see, having a gun doesn't make you an idiot, it doesn't make you into an madman, but if you ARE an idiot or an madman, and you get a gun, then you'll, well, have a gun.

Guns should NOT be carried on schools. And please don't tell me this is disrespectful, it is not, but arguing that more guns in schools give you SAFER schools? Sorry.

[superchevy]

i agree that firearms should be banned from educational campuses, unless you're a l.e.o. or security officer, and that's how it is in north carolina.

[Blind_Io]

Actually, I do think carrying a gun makes me safer. Think about it, if they had allowed guns on campus do you think the killer would have been able to shoot as many people as he did? All it would have taken in one person with a CCP and a pistol to end it before it began.

Look, your argument is completely flawed. The school has a ban on guns on campus and that didn't stop someone planning a massacre from getting a gun, all it did was ensure that law-abiding students were rendered helpless to defend themselves. Clearly the police and campus patrol are not able to protect students. If you can't guarantee the safety of a person you have no right to take away their ability to protect themselves.

Gun control won't do anything to prevent such disasters, people will either find a way to get a gun (and trust me, there always will be a way) or they will use another means such as the IEDs that the shooters planted at Columbine.

Gun control is an idealized notion of human nature, but there will always be criminals and madmen. Is it any wonder most of these shootings occur in gun-free zones? No matter how off his gourd someone is, they are not going to walk into a police station or a shooting range (well, one did that I know of, but he was unarmed) to do something like this. According to the logic of gun control advocates guns=killing. By that reasoning a shooting range should be the most dangerous place to be in the country. It's interesting that it's the only place very few people bother to lock their cars - at least at the range where my family shoots.

[Tweeke]

Originally Posted by nomix

Uhm, Nerd rage? Right.

Uhm, so, you think, that if more students walked around armed, that would mean a safer environment?

You see, having a gun doesn't make you an idiot, it doesn't make you into an madman, but if you ARE an idiot or an madman, and you get a gun, then you'll, well, have a gun.

Guns should NOT be carried on schools. And please don't tell me this is disrespectful, it is not, but arguing that more guns in schools give you SAFER schools? Sorry.

Totally agree. For Pete's sake, how could one say that things will be safer if all students had guns with them?
I'm so glad that we've got no right to bear fire-arms in the Netherlands. And that's it's actually pretty hard to acquire a gun. Good things.

[Bizness]

Originally Posted by Tweeke

Totally agree. For Pete's sake, how could one say that things will be safer if all students had guns with them?
I'm so glad that we've got no right to bear fire-arms in the Netherlands. And that's it's actually pretty hard to acquire a gun. Good things.

exactly...if an arguement breaks out for any reason ppl would be quick to pull a gun to settle it...

wow I cant even believe this is a debate.

[Blind_Io]

You know what? I take it back.

If you people think that you can't control yourself and would pull a gun and shoot someone in the face over an academic disagreement then you shouldn't have guns. Your apparent lack of self control is the the best argument you could have for your sides. Why don't you just say that you are an idiot with no self control who can't be trusted with anything sharper than a wooden spoon?

[Bizness]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

You know what? I take it back.

If you people think that you can't control yourself and would pull a gun and shoot someone in the face over an academic disagreement then you shouldn't have guns. Your apparent lack of self control is the the best argument you could have for your sides. Why don't you just say that you are an idiot with no self control who can't be trusted with anything sharper than a wooden spoon?

but this is were YOUR arguement is flawed..you assume everyone would have the same control as you.

And if you beleive that, well you need to get out and watch some reality videos...guns get pulled for much less in certain areas.

[AiR]

lol amerika.
Yeah, two hundred million (that is alot) guns floating about in a country cannot be the source of the problem can it? Noooo of course not. A country filled with guns is a safe country, like Iraq... I dont care if you lot kill yourselfs, but I do find it amusing when NRA fanatics come out and want MORE guns every time a thing like this happens. Things that, incidentally, has been happening quite a bit in america and are quite unheard of in other places were people have come to their senses.

[Blind_Io]

Originally Posted by Bizness

but this is were YOUR arguement is flawed..you assume everyone would have the same control as you.

And if you beleive that, well you need to get out and watch some reality videos...guns get pulled for much less in certain areas.

Yeah, I see that all the time at college campuses. Guns, pipes, bats, knives, explosives - all it takes is someone to say Kafka is the most influential existential writer next thing you know there is blood running in the halls of the philosophy department.

[Bizness]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

Yeah, I see that all the time at college campuses. Guns, pipes, bats, knives, explosives - all it takes is someone to say Kafka is the most influential existential writer next thing you know there is blood running in the halls of the philosophy department.

give everyone on Campus a gun and that will change

I went to a UNI that had 25,000 students, conflicts arrise, thats part of life, give those students all guns and you tell me they won't get used..wow you are naive.

More guns is not the solution.

[Blind_Io]

Germany, November 1999: A 15-year-old student in Meissen, eastern Germany, stabbed his teacher to death after taking bets from classmates he would dare commit the crime.

He was later jailed for seven years.

Germany, March 2000: A 16-year-old pupil at a private boarding school in the Bavarian town of Branneburg, shot a 57-year-old teacher, who later died from injuries.

The teenager - who also shot himself - was facing expulsion from school after failing a cannabis test.

Germany, February 2002: A former pupil killed his headmaster and set off pipe bombs in the technical school he had recently been expelled from in Freising near Munich.

The man also shot dead his boss and a foreman at the company he worked for before turning the gun on himself. Another teacher was shot in the face, but survived.

Germany, April 2002: Seventeen people killed after a gunman - a former pupil - opens fire in a school in Erfurt, eastern Germany. He then turned the gun on himself.

Scotland, March 1996: Gun enthusiast Thomas Hamilton shoots 16 children and their teacher dead at their primary school in Dunblane, Scotland before killing himself.

November 20, 2006 BERLIN, Germany (CNN) -- A former student strapped explosives to his body and went on a violent rampage at a school in western Germany, shooting and wounding six people -- most of them students -- before killing himself, police said.

People keep quoting statistics about gun deaths, but none seem to address how many of those guns were being carried or were purchased illegally in the first place. None seem to address how many of those gun-related (now there's an interesting term) deaths were the result of police action or self-defense. None seem to address how many were suicides. Japan is commonly held up as a great example of the industrialized world because they have so few "gun related" deaths. They also have the highest suicide rate. Don't you think the number of gun deaths might be higher if people had the option of shooting themselves instead of jumping off buildings? The point is that people will just find other ways to hurt themselves and each other. Guns are not to blame, people are. You can't fight human nature, you can take away everything we can use to hurt each other, you can take away all the sticks thicker than a drinking straw and all the rocks bigger than a marble and people will still hurt people with their bare hands. The question is do you want to level the playing field by allowing the potential victims to be armed to defend themselves or do you want to give the aggressor the advantage?

[Blind_Io]

Originally Posted by Bizness

give everyone on Campus a gun and that will change

I went to a UNI that had 25,000 students, conflicts arrise, thats part of life, give those students all guns and you tell me they won't get used..wow you are naive.

More guns is not the solution.

I never said anything about giving students guns. Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm talking about letting students carry guns, not requiring it. Most college students are idealists anyway and wouldn't want to carry or even own a gun, but it only takes a few among the student body to protect themselves and everyone around them.

[YF19pilot]

For some reason, you gun control advocates seem to think that giving someone the option of carrying a gun is the same as requiring someone to carry a gun.

As I've said before, loosening the gun control laws here in the U.S. is not going to change the number of people carrying them much more than where it is now. As it stands, unless you live in a major metropolitain area, you can get ahold of a gun if you so desire (paper work, etc. required if you are purchasing one).

If you really want to see sudden increases in firearms use, you'd drop the prices down. Right now, you could probably affoard a PS3 before you can get ahold of a decent 9mm.

But that aside. The assumption that Gun Control advocates seem to make is that noone has self control. That everyone will pull out a piece at the slightest inconvinence. That the mass populus all have itchy trigger fingers and its only a matter of good fortune that the NRA hasn't gone on a mass killing spree yet.


Now, as far as the campus goes, it's something that I've delt with, too, being at my school. Carrying a fire arm to class would make me nervous, and I can understand disallowing firearms. However, I think it would be fair to at least allow the students to perhaps leave the firearm secured in their dorm rooms or car (the key word being secured). I'm not saying that we should combat load every man, woman, and child, but rather, allow those who wish to practice their rights to do so. Just because we allow people to carry guns doesn't mean everyone will. Remember, there's still people in this day in age that refuse to drive.

Also, realize that when we're talking about the school here, I'm talking about open campuses such as a College or University. No high school student should be allowed to carry guns as most are still not mature enough to handle such responsibilities. I hope you realized this instead of taking the approach that I meant all schools, as that would be quite silly.


So to surmize:

I'm not saying that the campus would be safer if every student had a gun. I'm not demanding more guns be given out.

What I am saying is that the campus would be safer if the one or two students who do own firearms were allowed to at least keep them in their dorms or in their cars, secure, but where they could have gotten to them.

For some reason you guys seem to think that I and others want it required that everyone has a gun. That couldn't be further from the truth...

[D-Fence]

*trying to stay rational*

The incidents you quote Blind_IO are exept the last 3 ones normal homocide incidents like they happen everywhere. The only difference is that you just quoted the ones including schools, but I wonder how many people get shot because of / around schools in America each year?

The guy in Erfurt bought the gun legally, because he was in a shooting club, so there is no complete control. BUT in countries with gun control there are LESS big massacres than in countries with loose laws.

Another thing I want to point out: I go to a 30.000 people university. As soon as someone would starts fireing a gun there, we would run like hell. There would be no Emails (this is perverse if you think about it: You get a freaking EMAIL that there is a shooter around), there would be all alarms howling and via speaker we would be told to evacuate. I know this run for your life scheme from the time when the chemistry students blew up half of their building sending a toxin cloud through the campus..

One of the main problems in America is imho, that you guys are USED to guns so much you don´t take a threat serious enough. You here a gun fireing and think "Oh ok a gun" and continue your way. Just fire a gun in the air in London or Berlin f.e. and see how fast people run for cover even some streets away.

Your argument with giving people guns is true in its sickness. Perhaps there could have been less victims. Perhaps. But perhaps there could have been even more victims because noone new who the original shooter was so it would be a "all vs all" scenario.

As soon as you allow people to carry guns, over a short time many people WILL carry a gun, just to be able to defend themselfes against someone with a gun (you don´t bring a knife to a shooting, do you?).

Imho it´s too late for America anyways, you have 200.000.000 LEGAL (!) firearms around. Imagine that number. Now imagine, that even in Germany we have 20.000.000 illegal weapons around.......you can´t control it any longer, sad to say it, but you can just try to reduce the damage done by the guns.




Now just some random wikipedia quotes:


* Enoch Brown school massacre - Franklin County, Pennsylvania, United States; July 26, 1764
* Bath School disaster - Bath, Michigan, United States; May 18, 1927
* Poe Elementary School Attack - Houston, Texas, United States; September 15, 1959
* Cologne School Massacre - Cologne, Germany; June 11, 1964
* University of Texas at Austin Tower Massacre - Austin, Texas, United States; August 1, 1966
* Avivim school bus massacre, Israel by Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP); 1970
* Kent State shootings - Kent, Ohio, United States; May 4, 1970
* Jackson State killings - Jackson, Mississippi, United States; May 14-15, 1970
* Ma'alot massacre, Israel by DFLP (see [1]); 1974
* California State University, Fullerton Library Massacre - Fullerton, California, United States; July 12, 1976
* École Polytechnique Massacre - Montreal, Quebec, Canada; 1989
* Stockton Massacre - Stockton, California, United States, 1989
* University of Iowa shooting - Iowa City, Iowa, United States; 1991
* Concordia University massacre - Montreal, Quebec, Canada; August 24, 1992
* Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting - Great Barrington, Massachusetts, United States; December 14, 1992
* Richland High School shooting - Lynnville, Tennessee, United States; November 15, 1995.
* Frontier Junior High shooting - Moses Lake, Washington, United States; February 2, 1996
* Dunblane massacre - Dunblane, Scotland, United Kingdom; March 13, 1996
* Sanaa massacre - Sanaa, Yemen; 1997
* Pearl High School shooting, Pearl, Mississippi, United States; October 1, 1997
* Heath High School shooting, West Paducah, Kentucky, United States; December 1, 1997
* Jonesboro massacre - Jonesboro, Arkansas, United States; March 24, 1998
* Thurston High School shooting - Springfield, Oregon, United States; May 21, 1998
* Columbine High School massacre - Littleton, Colorado, United States; April 20, 1999
* W. R. Myers High School shooting - Taber, Alberta, Canada; April 28, 1999
* Santana High School - Santee, California, United States (near San Diego, California)
* Osaka school massacre - Ikeda, Japan; 2001
* Erfurt massacre - Erfurt, Germany; 2002
* Monash University shooting - Melbourne, Australia; October 21, 2002
* Rocori High School shootings - Cold Spring, Minnesota, United States; 2003
* Beslan school hostage crisis - Beslan, Russia; 2004
* Red Lake High School massacre - Red Lake, Minnesota, United States; 2005
* Dawson College shooting - Montreal, Quebec, Canada; 2006
* Amish school shooting - Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, United States; 2006
* Platte Canyon High School shooting - Bailey, Colorado, United States; 2006
* Beirut Arab University shooting - Beirut, Lebanon
* Henry Foss High School - Tacoma, Washington, United States January 3, 2007
* University of Washington- Tacoma, Washington, United States; April 2, 2007
* Virginia Tech massacre - Blacksburg, Virginia, United States; April 16, 2007

Gun violence in the United States is associated with the majority of homicides and over half the suicides,[1][2] and two-thirds of non-fatal violent injuries.[3] It is a significant public concern, especially in urban areas and in conjunction with youth activity and gang violence

The homicide rate in the United States of America is higher than that of other developed countries,[7][8][9] with firearms used to commit 68% of the 14,860 homicides in the United States during 2005.[10] Many more suffer non-fatal gunshot wounds, with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimating 52,447 violence-related and 23,237 accidental gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[3] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[11] with firearms used in 16,907 suicides in the United States during 2004.[1]

And please don´t pull out a standart Nazi comment now as a response, this gets odd...

[zenkidori]

When you have people who want to kill other people, they will always find a way. Gun control won't stop people who want to kill other people, you can't really make murder any more illegal. Most criminals buy thier guns illegally, the same way people buy drugs. If all guns vanished from the face of the earth tomorrow, there will be many many other ways of killing people, including bombs, incendaries, chemical weapons, etc. All those types of destructive devices can be made with things got from the grocery store or supply warehouse, and you don't need to be very smart to do it.

The real question should be why people do these thin