Iran receives Russian defense missiles

[Firecat]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070124/...russia_weapons

[Blind_Io]

The TOR-M1 surface-to-air missile system is a mobile, integrated air defense system, designed for operation at medium-, low- and very low –altitudes, against fixed/rotary wing aircraft, UAVs, guided missiles and precision weapon. The system is capable of operating in an intensive aerial jamming environment. The system is comprised of a number of missile Transporter Launcher Vehicle (TLV). A Russian air defense Tor battalion consists of 3 - 5 companies, each equipped with four TLVs. Each TLV is equipped with 8 ready to launch missiles, associating radars, fire control systems and a battery command post. The combat vehicle can operate autonomously, firing from stationary positions or on the move. Set-up time is rated at 3 minutes and typical reaction time, from target detection to missile launch is 5-8 seconds. Reaction time could range from 3.4 seconds for stationary positions to 10 seconds while on the move. Each fire unit can engage and launch missiles against two separate targets.
Tor M1 can detect and track up to 48 targets (minimum radar cross section of 0.1 square meter) at a maximum range of 25 km, and engage two of them simultaneously, at a speed of up to 700 m/sec, and at a distance of 1 to 12 km. The system's high lethality (aircraft kill probability of 0.92-0.95) is maintained at altitude of 10 – 6,000 m'. The vertically launched, single-stage solid rocket propelled missile is capable of maneuvering at loads up to 30gs. It is equipped with a 15kg high-explosive fragmentation warhead activated by a proximity fuse. The system is offered as fully integrated tracked combat vehicle, or as a modular combat unit (TOR-M1T) comprising a truck mounted mobile control module and launcher/antenna units, carried on a trailer. Other configuration include separated towed systems, as well as shelter-based systems, for the protection of fixed sites.

Tor M1 missile launched from the vertical container/launcher. The missile uses cold launch to exit and clear the launcher, and the rocket motor and thrusters are ignited at an altitude of 20 meters.The missile is also effective against precision guided weapons and cruise missiles. In tests the missile demonstrated kill probability of such targets ranging from 0.6 to 0.9.

The first operator of the Tor system was the Russian Army Air-Defense, which operates 100 units of the SA-15 Gauntlet variant. The Russian navy also uses the naval version known as SA-N-9. China bought 50 systems and possibly 25 more, between 1997 and 2002. The Greek army fielded 21 Tor M-1 systems. Most recently (December 2005) Iran was reported to sign a deal worth US$ 1.0 billion covering the procurement of up to 29 TOR M-1 missile systems, modernization of air-force systems and the supply of patrol boats. The system was also proposed to several other countries. The TOR component of the deal was reported to be US$700 million. Deliveries of the TOR systems began in November 2006 and by the year's end, over half of the order has been fulfilled. On January 16, 2007 Russia announced that deliveries were completed. Russian defense minister Sergei Ivanov confirmed the delivery and added that Moscow will continue to develop military and technical cooperation with Tehran. This could hint on further sales of S-300 air defense missiles, which were requested by Iran for several years, but so-far denied by Russia. The delivery was completed about 12 months ahead of time. According to the original schedule, completion of deliveries were expected to continue through 2008. (more from freerepublic).

Solution: Use decoys and the "Wild Weasels" with their AGM-88 HARM missiles or high-altitude B-2s with JDAM bombs to eliminate the targets prior to a strike.

These will probably be deployed around nuclear sites to keep Israel from doing another air strike, like they did to Iraq.

[Firecat]

How do they compare with the patriot systems the US sent over there?

On a side note, I know some people that are working on the replacement for the patriot systems (MEADS).

[jetsetter]

How do they compare with the patriot systems the US sent over there?

On a side note, I know some people that are working on the replacement for the patriot systems (MEADS).

The Patriot is in a different class of SAM systems.

[FATMOUSE]

Solution: Use decoys and the "Wild Weasels" with their AGM-88 HARM missiles

On a related note, this has to be the shittiest job in the air force. Reminds me of those people who are real life minesweepers. (which I think would suck even more).

[Blind_Io]

Yeah, but you try getting a Wild Weasel to give up his job. If I recall it's an all-volunteer squadron and after you leave you pretty much get your pick of assignments.

[jetsetter]

In any real combat situation the Iranian's real problem will be reloads for the various missile systems.

[Blind_Io]

It would be nice to have them shoot those missiles off at something that isn't worth several million dollars and have an American pilot sitting in it.

[konradiusz]

not the first time the Russians are helping out "the enemy" (sorry for stating the obvious). Do the Iranians have trained professionals that can competently use such potentially lethal weapons?
This might sound a bit off topic, but look at Chernobyl. Although those engineers there were trained and all (they had to have been), but they obviously weren't competent at their occupation and didn't understand the full potential a nuclear power plant had.
(i do understand there is more to Chernobyl than just that, but cant be bothered getting into too much detail)

I just hope that the Iranians wont go crazy and start pressing every big shiny red button that they see, because thats what uncle osama said.

[trionic]

Yeah Russia gave some help to Serbs and at least two Russian generals were in Iraq before latest war. Cold war is going on again but with much smaller scale.

Long air war campaign against Iran's nuclear, bio and chemical weapon facilities could make wonders to Russian economy as oil price goes sky high.

[nomix]

not the first time the Russians are helping out "the enemy" (sorry for stating the obvious). Do the Iranians have trained professionals that can competently use such potentially lethal weapons?

I am sure the Russians are glad to train people. I do maintain that Iran, the enemy or not, has the right to defend their land. And the US has supplied the third agressor in the region, Israel (Israel, Syria and of course, Iran) with arms. Let's not forget that.

This might sound a bit off topic, but look at Chernobyl. Although those engineers there were trained and all (they had to have been), but they obviously weren't competent at their occupation and didn't understand the full potential a nuclear power plant had.

As far as I know, the problem was a politically appointed supervisor that ignored warnings around the problems that occourd, and as a result, they did what they did, and what happened happened.

We are talking the steadily declining former super power the Soviet Union. Chaos.

From what I can understand, the decline went steady on to the day Kursk sank. I understand, it made Putin start technological develpoment, going away from the old Soviet doctrine of quantity, and going for quality. Much the same as China. One shouldn't underestimate either.

I just hope that the Iranians wont go crazy and start pressing every big shiny red button that they see, because thats what uncle osama said.

Well, I really don't think the Iranians are too influenced by Binny, they are ruled by a priest hood of extremist muslims, but they're not puppets, not in any way.

[Goose+]

I am learning about the cold war in History at the moment so this is really interesting seeing how Russia still backs America's enemies.

[nomix]

Towards the world, they're good friends. But in the scenes, there are a lot of rivalry. Especially under Putin. Putin is effective, strong, feared, ambicious and steady, all the things that Jeltsin wasn't.

Still, better with two super powers that won't attack each other, acting as a sort of deterrant on each other, than one, with much ambition, and no one to hold it back.

[jayhawk]

I knew of someone who spent quite a few years in Russia as Boris Yeltsins interpreter for CNN. She said that the former USSR was built by people who just didnt give a shit, and why should they have? You were employed whether you did or didnt want to, or have a job you didnt want. She called Russia, and I quote, "Europe's idiot sister to the East". Lovely people, the Russians, but uh...just a little behind on politics and technology.

I wouldnt be surprised if those missiles, after being launched, did a 180 and head back to their original place. Or just go flying off to Chechnya.

[jetsetter]

I wouldnt be surprised if those missiles, after being launched, did a 180 and head back to their original place. Or just go flying off to Chechnya.

Traditionally the Russians have overstated the capabilities of their weapons while the Americans have traditionally understated the capabilities of their weapons.

[Hidden_Hunter]

I wouldn't say the russian's are as behind as you make out, they have numerous things that are vastly superior to anything to US fields as does the US towards russia.

For insance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

The VA-111 Shkval (from Russian: шквал - squall ) torpedo and its descendants are supercavitating torpedoes developed by the Russian Navy. They are capable of speeds in excess of 200 knots (approximately 370 km/h.)

[jetsetter]

I wouldn't say the russian's are as behind as you make out, they have numerous things that are vastly superior to anything to US fields as does the US towards russia.

For insance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

The VA-111 Shkval (from Russian: шквал - squall ) torpedo and its descendants are supercavitating torpedoes developed by the Russian Navy. They are capable of speeds in excess of 200 knots (approximately 370 km/h.)

If the US military wanted such a device they could developed one but they didn't. It is the same with most other Russian weapons. Sure the US could have developed supersonic anti ship missiles but they didn't because the US Navy perfers jet aircraft. It does not mean that it is technically superior just something different.

[Blind_Io]

I wouldn't say the russian's are as behind as you make out, they have numerous things that are vastly superior to anything to US fields as does the US towards russia.

For insance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

The VA-111 Shkval (from Russian: шквал - squall ) torpedo and its descendants are supercavitating torpedoes developed by the Russian Navy. They are capable of speeds in excess of 200 knots (approximately 370 km/h.)

I'm not sure those actually exist. There is information about them online, and has been for years, but nothing concrete. I have never managed to find a photograph of one. I think the USN was looking at this technology years ago but never was able to make it work. One of the problems is that on most modern subs the torpedo tubes are not right at the front, as in the artist's drawing. The entire bow section is actually a hollow hydrodynamic cone that houses the spherical sonar array, the tubes are just behind this and come out of the side of the sub at a slight angle. The down side of this is that, while our subs have superior sonar, they can't fire a torpedo while at flank speed because the lateral force on the torpedo may cause it to jam or malfunction and put the sub at risk.

Another problem I see with the artist conception is that they have the torpedo being fired from a Typhoon class ballistic missile submarine, the largest sub ever built. The problem with a torpedo this fast is that it's more like a bullet, meaning the whole boat has to point the tubes at the target to fire. The sub pictured is larger than a WWII aircraft carrier and there is no way they would want to give it such a unidirectional weapon. Boomers use torpedoes as defensive weapons and leave the stalking of enemy subs and ships to the Attack boats. A smaller Attack boat might get away with a fast unidirectional weapon but while it makes it difficult to outrun the weapon it also eliminates some of its best features.

The US Mk-48 torpedo, the standard for the USN, is a very sophisticated machine. It can be wire-guided to a target as long as the launching sub is not moving too fast, or it can be programmed with a variety of missions. A just prior to launch the firing solution is loaded into the torpedo from the fire control center of the submarine, this tells the torpedo the distance, course, speed, and acoustic signature of the target and firing sub. The torpedo can then swim right to the target, no matter what direction the launching sub is facing. It can also be programmed to swim a slow search pattern, looking for enemy ships to kill. It will continue doing this until it runs out of power and sinks - this can be useful for quick area-denial to enemy subs or ships, such as to cover the withdrawal from an area, or to deny entrance to a harbor or port. Once the patrolling torpedo finds a target it switches into high gear for the kill and chases down the target. The Mk-48 can also pick out a single target among many, say you wanted to kill an aircraft carrier surrounded by support ships, you can program that into the torpedo so it will ignore picket ships and go straight for the carrier.

I would bet that a supercavitating torpedo requires some kind of special launch tube, which would make things harder in the torpedo room. Logistically it would not make much sense. On USN subs you can launch both the Mk-48 and the Harpoon anti-shipping missile from the tubes, an effective dual use of the same equipment. Space on board a sub is tight and I don't think that setting space aside for special torpedoes and tubes is very practical.

So, yeah, until the existence of this thing is confirmed I put it in the same category as the "Aurora" aircraft, which I remember hearing about in the early 1980s, and it was old news then.

If you are interested in subs and their role in Cold War covert operations I recommend the book Blind Man's Bluff. It's a great read, and if you are wondering where all the brass on USN subs is, check the trousers of the commanders and crew.

[jetsetter]

Here is a photo of it:



And I have also read Blind Man's Bluff. It was a good read.

[Blind_Io]

Could you link me to where you found that? I don't see any guidance fins or vectored thrust nozzles. It could easily be a part of a ballistic missile or something.

Sorry, I don't mean to be cynical, but I've seen what the guys in the Photoshop thread can do. Also, I'm looking at this thing and it doesn't look much like a torpedo. I would think that they would want to give some taper to the back to make it more hydrodynamic. The vacuum left in the weapon's wake would be the biggest source of drag and tapering the back end would eliminate that. I know that supposedly that space would be full of super-heated gas, but at those depths the pressure would collapse that wake almost instantly.