la france en guerre

[watto]

Originally Posted by Scud

No that's realistic.

No, it is racist actually.

How would you feel if you were in the minority in your country and someone said "Kick those fuckers (as in YOU) out and problem solved"

Open up your mind.

Just because the people rioting are a minority doesn't mean they should be kicked out. Part of the blame also has to lie with the Police and the Government. Certainly didn't help when the Interior Minister (is that correct?) said he'd rid the streets of all of them. That's fucking racist.

[zenkidori]

I would have to agree. Any group that feels oppressed will find something to identify with and go nuts. There is no excuse for these things, but that's what happens. It's not really a question of race, but of social status. When one group feels disadvantaged by another, it's breeds resentment and hate, and people look for any way to unleash it. If you already harbor a prejudice it's pretty easy to just join in and go along with many other people. The masses offer the comfort of anonymity, whereas none of these people would take a stand alone, they feel that they can be lost in the crowd.

Rioting like this is idiotic for many reasons. First, it just breeds more resentment, especially if they really are being oppressed(and it's not just a percieved injustice as the case seems to be). The ruling or upper class, the ones concerned with containing these riots will feel threatened by the violent lower class, and may subconciously or conciously take measures to prevent this in the future, which doesn't usually involve helping them out. However they deal with the riots and the aftermath it will be seen by those rioting as a way of silencing thier speech and further oppressing them. Second is that nothing can possibly be solved by rioting, unless your goal is total anarchy and you can keep growing the riot area untill the whole of French(or whatever) government and society is destroyed, nothing will come of it. Troops would be called in LONG before this could happen. Lastly the ones who are rioting aren't looked upon as the victims, but rather the aggressors, and this gains them no widespread sympathy for thier cause.

The time these people spend brooding over thier situation, violently acting out and causing havoc could be spent educating themselves, organizing themselves and arming themselves with proper tools to help thier situation, not molotovs and rocks.

[Scud]

If my race was causing the problems then YES kick them out.


If some people cant live by the rules like everyone else then it's time for them to go and find another place.


Dont forget this thing started cause 2 idiots ran from the cops or from something else and got fried casuse they were so fucking stupid to go where they did.

I have nothing against other people aslong as they follow the LAWS.
These people doesn't do it and should be kicked back to were their familys came from.

People are too soft these days.

Knowing france soon they will surrender to these thugs.

[///M]

First of all, the police isn't always right.

Second of all, you're an apathetic person if you can sit back and be judged because of what people of the same race/colour/ethnicity/sex do. These 'thugs' can't find a good job in a country were the ruling class hates them. The devide between Marocs, Algerians, Tunisians and the French is huge.

Let's blame the French and the rest of Europe first for trying to take over the world. Colonialism seems to be at the root of every problem stemming from the middle east.

[gtrietsc]

I think that if we can truly call ourselves "civilized", then rioting is pure BS. They know its wrong. They know its not going to help anything. Its just an excuse for punks to go break stuff. That they only do it under cover of night is the proof - if this were a "protest action" of some sort, they'd be out there in broad daylight. But these are cowardly assholes.

Just an excuse to act like children, and they should be treated accordingly. Except with rubber bullets and tear gas. Oh, and some tasering.

[bone]

a day and and a lot of conflicts later

police tried to interfear with youngsters burning down cars when they suddenly started shooting at the cops --> 29 cops in hospital, 2 severly hurt

and they also abandoned the plan to have the army take care of the problems, to afraid for a civil war

[zenkidori]

Originally Posted by Scud

If my race was causing the problems then YES kick them out.

You don't get it do you? No race does something as a whole, it's not a race that is the problem, that's why your thinking is racist. You have reduced an incredible number of social and economic factors into race, congratulations, Adolph.

First of all, the police isn't always right.

yes but you're still a dumbass if you climb a fence and electrocute yourself running from them.

police tried to interfear with youngsters burning down cars when they suddenly started shooting at the cops --> 29 cops in hospital, 2 severly hurt

This is why we use tear gas, rubber bullets, water cannons and batons.

[ryosuke]

i really don't know whether i shall be more shocked by the riots themselves or the widespread idiocy displayed in this thread!?

the riots make no sense, i would never support such useless destruction, but your short sighted statements make no sense either. do you really think that batons, tear gas and oppression are the solution for everything?

first of all, as already mentioned by some more educated visitors of this thread, the riots are the outcome of a long process and the death of the two youths only a catalyst. the rioters have grown up in france, they are french, they are the third generation of the immigrants. those immigrants were once welcome in france and they helped building the country.
its the equally short sighted immigration policy of past french governments that is mainly to blame for todays situation. they put the immigrants in cheap, huge housing complexes and made them live in a parallel world, which once established was forgotten and not dealt with any more. a decline in the economy had its worst results in these suburbs which nobody felt responsible for.
you cannot invite and then again throw out such people as you please, thats not the way you deal with human beings (i wonder when the first one suggests to throw the current offspring of black slaves out of america as unwanted immigrants...the irony were mind-boggling).
and even if you threw them all out of the country, it were highly naive to believe that would solve all the problems since those people surely would not appreciate such a discurtesy and the violence would only become worse, probably leading to a civil war.
especially considering it is only a very small part of the immigrant population that is involved in these riots.
the same would be the result of any oppression. you have to be careful not to react with too much violence, since any unneeded violence would make the rioters become political victims and the support for them would grow while the respect for the state would decline. furthermore the problem, even if succesfully oppressed would still exist and new riots would errupt at the next incident.

the only way to fundamentally change such a situation is to take on the source of the problem. you have to take away the reason for rioting, otherwise it will never stop.
i am aware of the fact that no politician can work miracles, but you should at least listen to them and not make them feel ignored.

and don't anybody of you accuse me of softness, because the way of dialogue is much harder than any counter-violence. it requires real wit and guts instead of guns. none of you will fire the gas grenades, your cry for more police force just resembles your inability to cope with such a situation.

[bone]

you're right for the most part

but if people start rioting, they deserve to be shot!
there are plenty of other ways to point out a problem than to destroy your neighbours possion (who's in the same situation anyways)

and there are blacks, chinese, japanese, eastern european,... people as well in france. they have it as hard. did they ever started rioting? no! it's always maroccan, turkish and algerian people (=muslims) who start problems

[Olds442]

My only real reaction was a big fat laugh!

Where is the french 'holier than thou' rhetoric now?!?!?!

I also think that people are a product of the situation that they make for themselves. if people are upset about a certain way of life then they should act (not riot) to make it better. My father grew up in a bombed out german city (anybody hear of berlin?) scrounging for coal for heat. He didn't riot and freak out. He bettered himself and was able to do something with his life. I think that if you sit around waiting for govt handouts then you should expect a little less from life than the guy that goes to college earning a degree. If you are a crackhead smoking your brain away then don't be surprised if you end up in a doorway sitting in your own filth.

Plenty of people grow up in slums or ghettos but do something with their lives. No excuse. Period!

[ryosuke]

Originally Posted by bone

you're right for the most part

but if people start rioting, they deserve to be shot!
there are plenty of other ways to point out a problem than to destroy your neighbours possion (who's in the same situation anyways)

do shoplifters, people who put others in danger by speeding, burglars and graphiti sprayer also seserve to be shot?

shooting everyone is such a great idea indeed, why don't we just shoot everybody in advance to make sure that nobody will ever commit any crime?

and there are blacks, chinese, japanese, eastern european,... people as well in france. they have it as hard. did they ever started rioting? no! it's always maroccan, turkish and algerian people (=muslims) who start problems

for a start, a huge part of the french muslims is black, while the asian communitys are very small. nevertheless violence in asian communitys is a problem for example in britain, while violence of east european immigrants is a problem in germany and finally in america the problems are in the ghettos of the black communitys. religion does hardly play a role in this case.

[hokiethang]

I have my own views of the French Government. Personally I haven't understood why they haven't surrendered yet. As for the situation, it does come down to a meaningless riot, which needs to be stopped, by whatever means necessary.

The problem with most people is they aren't willing to take personal responsibility for their actions, both here in the states and abroad. At least speaking from knowing about my hometown, it is entirely possible for someone from a low income area, to get ahead if they apply themselves. The school system I went through provided plenty of opportunities for people to become skilled at whatever you wanted, without having to pay anything. If you make a concerted effort here in the US to make your life better, it can happen. Like Olds442 said, "I think that if you sit around waiting for govt handouts then you should expect a little less from life than the guy that goes to college earning a degree. If you are a crackhead smoking your brain away then don't be surprised if you end up in a doorway sitting in your own filth."

If that's not the case in France, I welcome the opportunity to be enlightened, especially being from a system that is alleged to be the worst in the world.

[ryosuke]

Originally Posted by Olds442

My only real reaction was a big fat laugh!

thanks for making your ignorance clear in the first sentence already.

Where is the french 'holier than thou' rhetoric now?!?!?!

I also think that people are a product of the situation that they make for themselves. if people are upset about a certain way of life then they should act (not riot) to make it better. My father grew up in a bombed out german city (anybody hear of berlin?) scrounging for coal for heat. He didn't riot and freak out. He bettered himself and was able to do something with his life. I think that if you sit around waiting for govt handouts then you should expect a little less from life than the guy that goes to college earning a degree. If you are a crackhead smoking your brain away then don't be surprised if you end up in a doorway sitting in your own filth.

Plenty of people grow up in slums or ghettos but do something with their lives. No excuse. Period!

what great dreamworld is it that you live in where everybody has the chance to achieve everything he wants?!

according to your rhethoric the population of africa and asia must be downright lazy and stupid for not having achieved the same living conditions that we have...

i'm also really impressed by your father, who seems to have built up berlin all on his own with his bare hands! though i have to admit i suspect a deceit here, since the allies pumped billions into west germany to built it up again. i fear your father would have not been so succesful without this help...and the help of all the migrant workers who have helped to built up germany, until they were all struck with sudden laziness of course and initiated a broad economic decline.

[ryosuke]

Originally Posted by hokiethang

I have my own views of the French Government. Personally I haven't understood why they haven't surrendered yet. As for the situation, it does come down to a meaningless riot, which needs to be stopped, by whatever means necessary.

The problem with most people is they aren't willing to take personal responsibility for their actions, both here in the states and abroad. At least speaking from knowing about my hometown, it is entirely possible for someone from a low income area, to get ahead if they apply themselves. The school system I went through provided plenty of opportunities for people to become skilled at whatever you wanted, without having to pay anything. If you make a concerted effort here in the US to make your life better, it can happen. Like Olds442 said, "I think that if you sit around waiting for govt handouts then you should expect a little less from life than the guy that goes to college earning a degree. If you are a crackhead smoking your brain away then don't be surprised if you end up in a doorway sitting in your own filth."

If that's not the case in France, I welcome the opportunity to be enlightened, especially being from a system that is alleged to be the worst in the world.

does unemployment exist in your world? it certainly does over here...

[Olds442]

Originally Posted by ryosuke

thanks for making your ignorance clear in the first sentence already.

what great dreamworld is it that you live in where everybody has the chance to achieve everything he wants?!
according to your rhethoric the population of africa and asia must be downright lazy and stupid for not having achieved the same living conditions that we have...
i'm also really impressed by your father, who seems to have built up berlin all on his own with his bare hands! though i have to admit i suspect a deceit here, since the allies pumped billions into west germany to built it up again. i fear your father would have not been so succesful without this help...and the help of all the migrant workers who have helped to built up germany, until they were all struck with sudden laziness of course and initiated a broad economic decline.

About the laughing, this comes from hearing the french dictate to everyone else how it should be done.

Do you even realize that you are chastizing me for my opinion which is something you seem to be very high an mighty about? Does the word hipocrate mean anything to you?

next..... my father has done alot for himself and never asked for a hand out, so unless you are looking for a f*ucking knock-down-drag-out-ass-kicking, you best not discuss his acheivements again unless you have sat with him hearing his side.

c*nt!

[Olds442]

Originally Posted by ryosuke

Does unemployment exist in your world? it certainly does over here...

Where might that be?

[gtrietsc]

So what should we do? Group hug?

[ryosuke]

Originally Posted by Olds442

About the laughing, this comes from hearing the french dictate to everyone else how it should be done.

i must have missed that, whom did they dictate how to do something?

Do you even realize that you are chastizing me for my opinion which is something you seem to be very high an mighty about? Does the word hipocrate mean anything to you?

next..... my father has done alot for himself and never asked for a hand out, so unless you are looking for a f*ucking knock-down-drag-out-ass-kicking, you best not discuss his acheivements again unless you have sat with him hearing his side.

c*nt!

seriously now, i am sure that your father has really achieved something and must have struggled alot. but you do equally judge people whose living conditions you don't know because you have never heard their stories. you say that the succes depends only on the people themselves and everybody could make it. but that is just not true. if there aren't ernough jobs for everbody, some make it while others don't stand a chance. would you suggest them to starve instead of taking government handouts just because they are unable to achieve something themselves?

and please stop the insults, swearing does not uprate your arguments...

[Olds442]

Originally Posted by ryosuke

seriously now, i am sure that your father has really achieved something and must have struggled alot. but you do equally judge people whose living conditions you don't know because you have never heard their stories. you say that the succes depends only on the people themselves and everybody could make it. but that is just not true. if there aren't ernough jobs for everbody, some make it while others don't stand a chance. would you suggest them to starve instead of taking government handouts just because they are unable to achieve something themselves?

So you are saying that in France there are no jobs to be had anywhere? That all these folks in the "ghettos" are actively looking for employment and were told that no jobs exist and they need to live in sqalor?

and please stop the insults, swearing does not uprate your arguments...

Oh, but it does accentuate my anger. Plus it's fun.

BTW.... Where are you from that you are such and expert?

[ryosuke]

Originally Posted by Olds442

So you are saying that in France there are no jobs to be had anywhere? That all these folks in the "ghettos" are actively looking for employment and were told that no jobs exist and they need to live in sqalor?

no, i'm saying that there are few jobs. you have to understand that they live in parallel world which is very hard to get out of and the unemployment rate is only one of many problems there.

Oh, but it does accentuate my anger. Plus it's fun.

then you should allow me to use irony!

BTW.... Where are you from that you are such and expert?

frankfurt, germany.