la france en guerre

[Olds442]

Originally Posted by ryosuke

no, i'm saying that there are few jobs. you have to understand that they live in parallel world which is very hard to get out of and the unemployment rate is only one of many problems there.

but wouldn't the unemployment rate affect all french and not just the immigrants? Why don't the rest of the french riot and cause civil unrest?

then you should allow me to use irony!

Touché

frankfurt, germany.

I should have known. Another stubborn Kraut!

[///M]

Originally Posted by bone

no! it's always maroccan, turkish and algerian people (=muslims) who start problems

If a statement ever deserved a ban...

[zenkidori]

So do you wish to let the riots continue? To condemn the many law abiding and good citizens caught in this mess to live thru more fear and violence? yes tear gas and rubber bullets aren't tools to uplift the poor, but they have a dramatic effect in stopping riots. After the rioting has subsided then things can be done, but nothing can be done whilst people burn thier own neighborhoods to the ground. Do you really believe that EVERYONE in the riot area is rioting? I am sure there are many scared people caught up in the violence, locked in thier houses praying they don't get firebombed. What's fair to them? Because you don't want to give the violent rioters a few scrapes and bruises, perhaps make them cough a little then these good people are just supposed to ride it out? please.

you seem to find it easy to substitue suppression with oppression. Those who incite senseless violence deserve to be dealt with in an equal way, but the orinance in question wouldn't even do that, they are still dealing out more than they would ever get. If someone were throwing molotov cocktails at your apartment or house, would you pause and think, "gee, I wonder why he's so mad"? I seriously doubt it.

As I stated previously, the time spent on senseless violence and destruction could be better spent on educating themselves, organizing themselves and arming themselves with proper tools to lift thier selves above thier situation. You can always escape any situation if you're a free man, these people do have ways out, they are just not utilizing them. I have seen this all my life, my father worked his ass off to get our family to where we are, I have seen many others do so as well. I have also seen many others take no action and just sit and bitch about thier situation, and they are still stuck in that same situation today.

not just action but proper action must be taken. If there are seriously no social programs in France designed to help people, they should be created, but these riots should not be allowed to go on for any reason whatsoever.

[ryosuke]

Originally Posted by Olds442

but wouldn't the unemployment rate affect all french and not just the immigrants? Why don't the rest of the french riot and cause civil unrest?

it does indeed, but what do you think, does being a black, muslim and male youth with probably not the highest degree from some ghetto rather increase or decrease your chance to get a job? would you choose him or the white and christian youth from a more respectable suburb?

sadly, discrimination is still an enormous problem. that integration has failed has little to do with the ethnic backgrounds of those people (although it surely does play a role, but its by far not the only one).

i have searched the BBC website for some articles about the backgrounds, if you want something to read...:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399748.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4405790.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4415018.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4410980.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4395934.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4414442.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4408972.stm

I should have known. Another stubborn Kraut!

[ryosuke]

Originally Posted by zenkidori

So do you wish to let the riots continue? To condemn the many law abiding and good citizens caught in this mess to live thru more fear and violence? yes tear gas and rubber bullets aren't tools to uplift the poor, but they have a dramatic effect in stopping riots. After the rioting has subsided then things can be done, but nothing can be done whilst people burn thier own neighborhoods to the ground. Do you really believe that EVERYONE in the riot area is rioting? I am sure there are many scared people caught up in the violence, locked in thier houses praying they don't get firebombed. What's fair to them? Because you don't want to give the violent rioters a few scrapes and bruises, perhaps make them cough a little then these good people are just supposed to ride it out? please.

i myself have no problem with the rioters getting some bruises, i only have a problem with force being advertised as a solution and i fear that too much force may mobilize more rioters.
however, few in this thread have gone further than proposing force to deal with the situation, thereby neglecting the full scale of the situation which consists of a lot more than just some random riots.

you seem to find it easy to substitue suppression with oppression. Those who incite senseless violence deserve to be dealt with in an equal way, but the orinance in question wouldn't even do that, they are still dealing out more than they would ever get. If someone were throwing molotov cocktails at your apartment or house, would you pause and think, "gee, I wonder why he's so mad"? I seriously doubt it.

i guess chirac's house has not been set on fire yet, so he should have time to think about the problem.

As I stated previously, the time spent on senseless violence and destruction could be better spent on educating themselves, organizing themselves and arming themselves with proper tools to lift thier selves above thier situation. You can always escape any situation if you're a free man, these people do have ways out, they are just not utilizing them. I have seen this all my life, my father worked his ass off to get our family to where we are, I have seen many others do so as well. I have also seen many others take no action and just sit and bitch about thier situation, and they are still stuck in that same situation today.

so you have never observed anybody working his ass off and still not achieving anything?

how would you explain the situation then? are some people naturally stupid or lazy? naturally prone to rioting?

not just action but proper action must be taken. If there are seriously no social programs in France designed to help people, they should be created, but these riots should not be allowed to go on for any reason whatsoever.

no they should not be allowed to go on, and i think i have never said otherwise.

[YF19pilot]

Originally Posted by zenkidori

This is why we use tear gas, rubber bullets, water cannons and batons.

From what I understand, water cannons are either banned or no longer used in the States. They were used heavily in the 60's and 70's to disperse civil rights and vietnam protestors, so police units don't want to invoke bad memeories or have someone cry foul for using such tactics. However, I do understand that France has them...

Originally Posted by ryosuke

so you have never observed anybody working his ass off and still not achieving anything?

how would you explain the situation then? are some people naturally stupid or lazy? naturally prone to rioting?

The problem is, that you have to start early if you want to work your way out. Yes, I have seen people work their asses off and not get anywhere. Though it tends to be the result of something early on. Either they weren't motiviated enough in school, they fooled around when the were young, or they just didn't make the grades, some reason or another, and they go right into the work force and stay there, working double shifts, barely making enough to survive in the world, and when they're older trying to dig themselves out, it's only harder.

I've also seen people who were forced by their parents to start working as soon as they can. Their grades may suffer, but when they get out of school, all they know is work. And they stay there, because there is no other way for them.

Yes, situations come from your own doing, however your enviroment and surroundings might make you blind to see opertunity is knocking when you make your descisions. That is the fault of the previous generation.

Most of these rioters (from what I understand) are at that age where they need to be working to get out of that hole. So yes, they could be doing something useful other than pillaging France.

I'm not saying that the French government shouldn't do anything. This situation goes both ways. The responsiblity does not lie on just the 'imigrants' or the French government.

And if they're 3rd generation, born in France, they're French. Maybe not in bloodline, but in all other views, that should mean they are.

[ryosuke]

that makes more sense and i tend to agree.

[bihus]

Originally Posted by ///M

If a statement ever deserved a ban...

For telling the truth? It may not be the case where you live, but in France it sure is. At least the major problems.
BTW, I don't have a problem with anyone, if they don't demand for the rest of the population to addapt to them, and not the opposite.

[///M]

No one is demanding anything from anyone but an equal playing field.

[bone]

Originally Posted by ///M

No one is demanding anything from anyone but an equal playing field.

HA? YEAH RIGHT!

that fucking islam is giving problems everywhere.

they can't work in a restaurant, caus you find porc there
they can't work in a firm, caus 5 times a day they have to pray
no one is allowed to wear hats inside, but they are, caus it's their religion
they need their ramadan each year, but no boss may complain for them loosing concentration due lack of food, caus it's their religion

why in gods name would you give them a job?

and it's not like they would be gratefull if they had one. they just would be a pain in the ass for the company. they're not dynamic, you can't ask them sth intense. or they quite whitin 5 minutes

and school is FREE in europe. but you think they go? no, they stay home and get frustrated

and i'm not saying that it's because of the religion that problems arise. but that religion makes them impossible to communicate with. it's their way or no way. but sorry, it's my country, it's my way or you're gone

and the thing about other immigrants also giving problems. in belgium we have LOADS of 2nd generation Italian immigrants, whose parents came here to work in the coalmines during the 50s, and in the 70s, those mines were all shut down. all those italians without a job. you know what they did? not complain, but search sth else and get on with life

and last night, cars where lit on fire in brussels as well. why? belgium didn't do anything wrong. but monkey sees, monkey does

(oh, and in europe, water cannons are still used)

[watto]

^Dude.

You're a fucking racist.

It's their religion, be tolerant. Deal with it, tough shit mate.

Their beliefs are their beliefs, not yours. So what if they don't eat pork? So what if they have to pray? So what if they have headscarves? So what if they have ramadan?

You'd give them a job because the absolute majority of them are normal human beings. It's the fanatical 0.00000000001% that give a bad image to the rest of the religion.

Don't be so damn judgemental.

[gtrietsc]

Originally Posted by watto

It's the fanatical 0.00000000001% that give a bad image to the rest of the religion.

True, but the other 99.9999999999% really don't condemn the fanatics as much as they should. Makes it harder not to group them all together.

[Scud]

So you are a racist when you say the TRUTH about those idiots.


"It's the fanatical 0.00000000001% that give a bad image to the rest of the religion. "


That's BULLSHIT.

It's more like 70% of the people that are Fanatic.

[ryosuke]

Originally Posted by Scud

So you are a racist when you say the TRUTH about those idiots.


"It's the fanatical 0.00000000001% that give a bad image to the rest of the religion. "


That's BULLSHIT.

It's more like 70% of the people that are Fanatic.

would you mind to back your weird ideas up with some facts?

[///M]

Wow.

You really thought this through, haven't you? Outlined all your problems with muslims? Planning to keep them out of employment? Isolation, perhaps? Sounds familiar.



Just, wow.

[zenkidori]

I would just like to point out that Islam is not a race, so he's prejudiced, not racist.

I have met quite a few Islamic people that are very sucessful in business, thier religion doesn't seem to be a huge factor.

[Firecat]

Funny. It's actually the same mentality of certain people in this thread that's at the root of many of the problems afflicting the world today. Ignorance.

It's so much easier to blame ethnicity or religion, that way you can avoid the real problems and facing reality. If some of you had even the slightest knowledge of history, you'd see that it's not just muslims that have ever rioted or had problems assimilating to a new country.

Just in the past few weeks there have been several riots in several different countries, which did not involve muslims. So much for that theory.

[Firecat]

Originally Posted by Scud

That's BULLSHIT.

It's more like 70% of the people that are Fanatic.

70% of the over 1 billion muslims in the world? If that were the case, you'd be dead right now.

[Manic Moran]

I'm afraid that a 'big fat laugh' is what quite a lot of Americans would do, if the situation wasn't so serious. There's quite a move to drag out all the quotes from France (and Europe in general) that went around after the breakdown of law an order in New Orleans. And that was after a major weather event, and peace was reimposed in under a week. France has no such natural disaster excuse, and it's been going on for 13 nights now?

However, tasty though the crow is, it doesn't help either the short term problem (rioting) or the long term problem (discontent). Now that the first fatality has happened, I don't think the government would be wrong to say 'OK. You've made your point, we'd be foolish to ignore it. Now, stop, or else" and then release the hounds. Have you seen how much hardware and manpower the Gendarmes have? They could invade another country.

Long run? Damned if I know. Fortunately, that's not a problem I ever have to worry about. I'm just a grunt.

NTM

[zenkidori]

Originally Posted by Manic Moran

I'm afraid that a 'big fat laugh' is what quite a lot of Americans would do, if the situation wasn't so serious. There's quite a move to drag out all the quotes from France (and Europe in general) that went around after the breakdown of law an order in New Orleans. And that was after a major weather event, and peace was reimposed in under a week. France has no such natural disaster excuse, and it's been going on for 13 nights now?

Indeed the irony is sweet.

I am surprised at the amount of prejudice thought here. I had thought the whole, "well if you don't like it you can giiit out!", thing was looked down upon by most.