Sheriff: A&M Student's Body Cooked On Grill

[zenkidori]

Murder: unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being

capital punishment is not murder. in such horrible cases like this society and humanity benefits nothing from letting people like this live.

if he isn't sentenced to death, he'll probably be killed in prison anyway.

[Narcolepsy]

Yeah this is a very old and hot debate; very few states here do it; very few ever reach execution due to the fact it has mandatory appeals and is only for the most heinous of crimes. What do you propose we do with him? Its been said - it costs something like 30k a year for each prisoner the state keeps (US has A LOT).

Punishment serves a few purposes
Rational puposes
- Restraint - keeps him from doing it again
- Deterrence - keeps others from doing similar things
- Rehabilitation - teaches them a lesson

Irrational puropses
- Retribution - revenge, for family and morally for the victim

This act shows a gross indifference to human life - something has to be done to stop him and make an example of him; Prison usually hardens instead of rehabilitates. What can we do with this guy? The only other option is an expensive and quite unpleasant life in prison. If you unequivocably think that killing is morally wrong, even though its socially efficient, thats totally reasonable. Sometimes you have to weigh the needs of the many against the few. The whole - 'if you could have killed Hitler' scenario. Our system of capitol punishment was put in place by the many approving the purge of a horrible handful in VERY limited circumstances. This might (although admittedly its uncertain) deter or prevent. Frankly I don't know how I feel about capitol punishment generally and I'm SURE juries don't take it lightly.

[KaJuN]

Originally Posted by Peter3hg

I am against capital punishment but only because I feel it is an easy way out for the offender. I think that facing the rest of your life in prison is far worse than just being put to sleep, even if the cost is much greater.

I totally agree. Not only is it easier on the offender, it's harder on the victim's family and friends. They have to suffer their loss for the rest of their lives. When the murderer is dead, his suffering is over.

The other thing is that someone who brutally and painfully murders someone else is peacefully put to sleep much like a sick pet. Does that sound like justice to you? If they were allowed to use more brutal execution methods the amont of violent crime happening in this country would definately go down. I would be all for creating inmate labor camps with slave-like conditions. But we can't do that because all these pansies would complain about human rights violations and all that crap. Well the reason murderers are in prison is because they violated someone else's human rights by killing them. They're in prison to be punished right? Then let's start punishing them and not being so damn soft!

*I'm only talking about the really serious offenders here (first degree murderers and the like) and I believe that lesser offenders should be given every chance to be rehabillitated and brought back into society.*

[Blind_Io]

Say "cake" I dare you.

[nomix]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

Yes, we are talking about a life, the life of the 19 year old girl who was slaughtered, butchered and incinerated. We are talking about her family and friends who have to live with the knowledge of what happened to their child, sister, and friend. We are talking about all those people who don't even have a body to bury. Step into their being for a moment. Think of your sister or brother, think of what it would be like to have someone do this to your child. It's easy to spout off high ideals when you are so far removed from it, but I can't do that. There are far more victims here than just the girl who was slaughtered and butchered.

I don't think you've understood my opinion. I'd kill the guy if I got the chance. I'd kill him in a mad violent frenzy, and feel good about it.

But the government shouldn't do that. They are to behave a bit more serious, less like a mob. In my opinion.

Yup, because a kid stealing 5 cars is exactly like killing your 19 year old girlfriend, cutting her up and burning the remains on your grill for two days. I can totally see the parallel there. A 15 year old doesn't even have a fully developed prefrontal cortex yet, you know, the bit that is in charge of decision making, inhibition and higher thought? The perpetrator in this case is 27! He doesn't have the excuse of an immature brain. He also didn't boost a few cars. He is an adult and until I see test results that show brain damage or impaired functioning I am working under the assumption that he has an intact brain. If he is impaired in some way then he needs to be locked up because he can't control himself. However, if there is no impairment in functioning, as I suspect given how long this went on and the deliberate nature of the crime, then it is one of the most horrible and heinous things one human can do to another.

I did not say that was the same. I was just interested in the views of some Americans.

What the guy did, was awful. (I like understatement or overstatement, never both. )

Place him in jail for a lifetime.

If we are tbh, selling crack to kids outside a school ruins more lives, and causes more crimes.

From an economical viewpoint, it would be more affordable to execute them, more economical than executing murderers. And a just as good cause.

Originally Posted by zenkidori

Murder: unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being

capital punishment is not murder. in such horrible cases like this society and humanity benefits nothing from letting people like this live.

if he isn't sentenced to death, he'll probably be killed in prison anyway.

It's the same, it's just made legal. I won't deny the legality of it, but don't suger coat it.

There are different types of murder. Justifiable murder, ujustifiable murder, understandable murder, and so on.

The end result is allways the same, someone dies.

[Firecat]

We may have the same point of view on this. I don't think the state should really be executing people, it should be reserved for the victims family (personally, I'd like to exact my own revenge. And if somebody doesn't have the stomach to do it themselves, then it shouldn't be done at all). But in reality, how would one have the opportunity once a suspect is identified/caught?

[zenkidori]

life in prison isn't always a terrible thing as some of you would believe. 3 hots and a cot, cable tv, drugs, physical therapy, internet access, libraries, etc. don't exactly spell out "worse than death".

I feel for such terrible people it's better to completely remove them from society, permanently, and move on. There really is no point in keeping people like that around other than making some people feel good about themselves that they don't want someone to die.

[Blind_Io]

nomix, you are a nice guy but you see the world in black and white and it just isn't so. You are idealistic, and that's great. By the time I was your age I had already put idealism behind me. I'm jaded and cynical and that is the way of the world. If you can hold on to your idealism then more power to you. I prefer to see the world as it is. You have lofty ideas but in my opinion they are unrealistic and unobtainable.

[nomix]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

nomix, you are a nice guy but you see the world in black and white and it just isn't so. You are idealistic, and that's great. By the time I was your age I had already put idealism behind me. I'm jaded and cynical and that is the way of the world. If you can hold on to your idealism then more power to you. I prefer to see the world as it is. You have lofty ideas but in my opinion they are unrealistic and unobtainable.

Well, it might look like I see the world in black and white, but I don't. I'm not a real idealist, I'm a realist, even though I still maintain ideals as boundries.



Let me just add, you are a very good person to debate. Allways a pleasure.

[FATMOUSE]

Solitary for life might work.

[KaJuN]

Originally Posted by zenkidori

life in prison isn't always a terrible thing as some of you would believe. 3 hots and a cot, cable tv, drugs, physical therapy, internet access, libraries, etc. don't exactly spell out "worse than death".

That's exactly what my argument is. Criminals are supposed to be in prison to be punished. So why do they get such cushy treatment? Hell, criminals in this country live better than people in many third world countries. That's fucked up.

[drewzor]

said it before, use him for scientific experiments and further the development of medical cures... vacinations etc.. effectivly he could end up saving lives

[nomix]

Originally Posted by KaJuN

That's exactly what my argument is. Criminals are supposed to be in prison to be punished. So why do they get such cushy treatment? Hell, criminals in this country live better than people in many third world countries. That's fucked up.

Right, so he should be starved, and there should be guerillas in prison taking one of the prisoners every night, and shooting them?

Prison is a part of several things. It's mainly keeping people out of society, and making sure they don't brake the law again, secondly, it's supposed to act as a deterrant for the rest of the population, and lastly, it's suposed to be punishment.

Prisons should have very good living conditions indeed, as most prisoners are not there for life, and is one day comming out into society.

Solitary confinement can make a man mad, I simply think that society is better with rehabilitated persons, rather than psycotic wrecks.

[tigger]

Originally Posted by nomix

Prisons should have very good living conditions indeed, as most prisoners are not there for life, and is one day comming out into society.

I disagree. Prisons should be hell. It should be so bad that you don't want to go back. I know people who have gone to jail, and the way some of them act you'd think they wouldn't mind going back.

This guy should get the death penalty. He should be killed, or murdered, or however you would like to put it. When a person commits a crime, violates someone else's rights, he forfeits his own. Whatever your religious beliefs, death would be the ultimate punishment for this man. Either his life ends, or his soul goes to hell. In any case, it would be worse than life in prison.

[Blind_Io]

Originally Posted by nomix

Right, so he should be starved, and there should be guerillas in prison taking one of the prisoners every night, and shooting them?

Prison is a part of several things. It's mainly keeping people out of society, and making sure they don't brake the law again, secondly, it's supposed to act as a deterrant for the rest of the population, and lastly, it's suposed to be punishment.

Prisons should have very good living conditions indeed, as most prisoners are not there for life, and is one day comming out into society.

Solitary confinement can make a man mad, I simply think that society is better with rehabilitated persons, rather than psycotic wrecks.

I'm all for the Turkish prison system, at least the way it was in the 70s when my parents lived there. Essentially they were using the same system they had been for hundreds of years - throw the scumbag in a hole. It was the responsibility of his family to bring food and blankets. That way the convict is a minimal drain on public resources.
You want a deterrent, that's it.

There are actually people who want more privileges for prisoners. I sat through a whole presentation on the benefits of conjugal visits and the effect on behavior. Well no shit. If I was getting laid regularly I would probably be in a better mood too.

Any fate is too good for this guy. I can't think of something bad enough to do to him.

[nomix]

Originally Posted by tigger

I disagree. Prisons should be hell. It should be so bad that you don't want to go back. I know people who have gone to jail, and the way some of them act you'd think they wouldn't mind going back.

That's says a lot more about the community they live in than the prison..

This guy should get the death penalty. He should be killed, or murdered, or however you would like to put it. When a person commits a crime, violates someone else's rights, he forfeits his own. Whatever your religious beliefs, death would be the ultimate punishment for this man. Either his life ends, or his soul goes to hell. In any case, it would be worse than life in prison.

You give up your own safety in that moment you do it (in other words: self defense). But you still have a human right, either way you look about it, murder is wrong, and it doesn't help committing another murder, how legal it may be.

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

I'm all for the Turkish prison system, at least the way it was in the 70s when my parents lived there. Essentially they were using the same system they had been for hundreds of years - throw the scumbag in a hole. It was the responsibility of his family to bring food and blankets. That way the convict is a minimal drain on public resources.
You want a deterrent, that's it.

That's a disgrace, not a deterrant. Take it further, why not start with torture?

The prison system you just wrote about is a disgrace, and no prison should be like that.

Yes, a prison system costs a lot, but if you take the right to punish people, then you are NOT going to treath people like crap because of economic issues.

There are actually people who want more privileges for prisoners. I sat through a whole presentation on the benefits of conjugal visits and the effect on behavior. Well no shit. If I was getting laid regularly I would probably be in a better mood too.

Which would lead to less problems inside prisons, which might VERY well avoid a large number of the cases where prisoners become troubled, develop psycological problems and other stuff. Which might make them unstable. And it might make them commit other crimes when they get out.

Good conditions are important for avoiding problems and crime later.

Any fate is too good for this guy. I can't think of something bad enough to do to him.

I can. Place him in prison for the rest of his life.

[Blind_Io]

Originally Posted by nomix

That's a disgrace, not a deterrant. Take it further, why not start with torture?

The prison system you just wrote about is a disgrace, and no prison should be like that.

Yes, a prison system costs a lot, but if you take the right to punish people, then you are NOT going to treath people like crap because of economic issues.


Which would lead to less problems inside prisons, which might VERY well avoid a large number of the cases where prisoners become troubled, develop psycological problems and other stuff. Which might make them unstable. And it might make them commit other crimes when they get out.

Good conditions are important for avoiding problems and crime later.

Step out of your narrow Western frame of mind for a moment. Some countries still use corporal punishment and they have excellent results with very little cost. In the West we would call being beaten with a cane "torture" yet is an acceptable punishment in many countries. Even a US citizen (and a minor) who was caught vandalizing cars was publicly caned.

Now take a look at the Turkish system. It keeps the criminal off the street and takes the responsibility for much of the cost of his sentence off the state. The state represents the people, and thus the victims of crime. How is it just that the victims of crime must pay for the punishment of the criminal? Instead the criminal can survive in relative comfort, however the duty to provide that comfort is on the criminal's family - this is the deterrent, not the prison term. The same way that the caning is not the deterrent, it's the publicity of it. The punishment is carried out in public in front of the perpetrators friends and neighbors. The avoidance of shame is the force behind the deterrent, not the avoidance of pain.

Our system of coddling the criminal, providing comfort and other niceties does not work. The US has more people in prison than some countries have people, and I think we have one of (if not the) highest rate of imprisonment in the world. Other nations with similar systems also face overcrowding problems (England anyone?). Now look at some of the Eastern nations with what we would call "severe" criminal consequences. Lower crime rates, the need for less policing, and very few incarcerated criminals.

The results speak for themselves. Rehabilitation for the number of criminals in our system is simply not possible. There are not enough social workers, psychologists, psychiatrists and case workers to make it happen. There just isn't enough money. We need to focus on realistic deterrents to crime, if we do the number of people needing rehabilitation may actually drop to a manageable level. Then those who really need rehab will get it and the rest who are working the system face real consequences for their actions - consequences that will actually make them think twice before committing a crime.

[zenkidori]

Originally Posted by nomix

Right, so he should be starved, and there should be guerillas in prison taking one of the prisoners every night, and shooting them?

Prison is a part of several things. It's mainly keeping people out of society, and making sure they don't brake the law again, secondly, it's supposed to act as a deterrant for the rest of the population, and lastly, it's suposed to be punishment.

Prisons should have very good living conditions indeed, as most prisoners are not there for life, and is one day comming out into society.

Solitary confinement can make a man mad, I simply think that society is better with rehabilitated persons, rather than psycotic wrecks.

a person who is worthy of the death penality isn't exactly a candidate for rehabilitation. In most states, lifers and death row inmates are kept separate from those who have shorter sentences, so you wouldn't be punishing people with a 3 year sentence right along with lifers. Also, think of the types of people that are put into maximum security prisons for life terms, you don't exactly want to invite them over for tea or coffee or whatever it is you drink over there.

I think people in this thread are talking about two different types of people, because I keep reading stuff about rehabilitation and re-entry into society and such. people on death row and serving life terms aren't coming back, so we're not exactly on the same page in this discussion. I agree that people who are expected to come back into society should be properly counceled and rehabilitated, and this is something most(if not all) countries are sorely lacking. But the people who are basically lost causes, who have no use to anyone save to cause hurt and pain shouldn't be treated the same as someone who still has the potential to do good and contribute to society. We should not be giving the Charlie Mansons of the world phone