South Ossetia War

[jetsetter]

Information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)

Apparently the Russians have struck military airfields. This is disturbing considering that several Americans have been serving at Georgian airfields advising their airforce.

[Cobol74]

This is no small war, in a far away place, that matter not - it does matter, no really.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7550780.stm

[anti-net]

Yup, this is a big deal now. The UN were unable to get a deal to sort things out (which is you know, normal) and Russia doesn't appear to be letting up there fight.

Russia dropped Bombs on a port called Poti, which is where the Georgian navy are based and an airfield which I believe killed 2 who were Georgians I believe (civilians too). There were talks of the Russians bombing the capital but it appears to just be rumour. Hopefully this can get sorted, it seems like something foolish to go to war over when it could easily be sorted out in talks.

[jetsetter]

Seems that three different flavors of Cossack have joined with Ossetia. Current info describes a Don Cossack volunteer motorized infantry regiment, Terek Cossacks, and Kuban Cossacks joining the fight again Georgia. This is in addition to Cossacks from Russia and volunteers from the Abkhazian and North Ossetia regions.

The whole Georgian military at this point only consists of about 33,000 or so individuals with around 18,000 being in the Army. It has been modernizing of late with assistance from the United States and is supposed to grow to 75,000 by 2010.

As you can see by the numbers of weapons and vehicles, Georgia is facing a crisis. The low number of effective fighter aircraft has been especially troubling. Report tell that Russia basically owns the air.

MBT

* T-72B1- 59
* T-72M - 75
* T-72AB - 71
* T-55AM -40

AIFV / APC

* BMP-1 - 80
* BMP-2 - 120
* BTR-80 - 75
* MT-LB - 64
* BRDM-2 - 17
* Otokar Cobra - 100

Artillery

Towed

* 2A36 Giatsint-B-12
* 2A65 Msta-B-18
* 2A18 (D-30)-120

Self-Propelled

* 2S7 Pion - 12
* 2S19 Msta-S - 3
* 2S3 Akatsiya - 26
* VZ 77 Dana - 47

Multiple Launch Rocket Systems

* M-87 Orkan - 4
* RM-70 - 48
* BM-21 Grad - 120
* LAR-160- 15
* M-63 Plamen – 12

Mortars

* 2B11 120mm - 240
* M-38/43 120mm - 365
* M75 120mm – 250

Aircraft

* 22 Su-25KM
* 13 Su-25UB
* 12 MiG-25
* 4 Su-24
* 18 MiG-21
* 11 L-39
* 2 L-29
* 1 Mi-35 "Hind"
* 19 Mi-24-P "Hind"
* 21 Mi-24-V "Hind"
* 18 Mil Mi-14
* 16 Mi-8 "Hip"
* 6 Bell-212
* 40 UH-1H
* 2 Mil Mi-2

[jetsetter]

It's been indicated that Russia has struck Georgian ports from the air and is moving in larger amounts of armour.

[Labcoatguy]

The Greeks used to treat the Olympics as a time of cease-fire. Looks like that tradition hasn't entirely carried through to today.

[argatoga]

Russia is probably attacking now because of the Olympics, everyone is distracted.

[Labcoatguy]

Originally Posted by The New York Times

Pentagon officials said late on Friday that Georgia had requested assistance in airlifting home the approximately 2,000 Georgian troops now in Iraq. The request was under review, and standard procedures would indicate that the United States government would honor the request, officials said.

Anyone remember the Yom Kippur airlift of supplies in 1973 and what happened after that? I just hope the Russians aren't as touchy.

[Donington]

Putin has accused Georgia of genocide against the South Ossetian people

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552012.stm

Mi-24-V "Hind"

I still intend to replace my Peugeot with one of these

[jetsetter]

Anyone remember the Yom Kippur airlift of supplies in 1973 and what happened after that? I just hope the Russians aren't as touchy.

Russia would lose more than they would gain by shooting down an airliner.

Putin has accused Georgia of genocide against the South Ossetian people

Of course he did.

[Labcoatguy]

Originally Posted by jetsetter

Russia would loose more than they would gain by shooting down an airliner.

Ah, I wasn't referring to that. I meant more the Arab nations responding to the US airlift to Israel by creating that oil embargo; I fear Russia doing something similarly disruptive and indirct to the US if the airlift of Georgian troops goes through.

[Momentum57]

and its over oh liberal bitches its not the end of the world

go crazy Russian oil mad bastards thats how you make mededive(spelling?) look like hes boss

[jetsetter]

Georgia should have been part of NATO months ago but Germany and France held back. Had Georgia been part of NATO Russia would not have attacked.

In April this year, an embattled American president went to the Nato summit in Bucharest and asked Nato allies to offer Ukraine and Georgia a membership action plan (Map). Bush had been warned that European allies would not agree to the proposal, but he tried anyway. Back in Washington, European rejection of the Map was greeted with disgust. As one leftwing foreign policy expert told me the fact that France was talking about a "balance of power with eastern Europe" illustrated that the organisation was becoming a joke. The Europeans, he said, "have not woken up to the realities of the world". He was livid, to say the least, about the refusal to offer a Map to either country. And he, like myself, was a Democrat.

Now the chickens of European equivocation are coming home to roost. During the Bucharest summit, where the then Russian president, Vladimir Putin, met with Nato leaders, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said:

We [Russians] don't believe that this policy of expanding Nato eastwards is playing a positive role in creating stability and strengthening democracy in the heart of Europe.

Apparently the armed invasion of Georgia does promote stability and democracy. I am not going to defend the tactics or rhetoric of the Georgians leading up to this crisis; they have been less than stellar in their handling of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. But the fact that so many European commentators feel that the Russian invasion was somehow deserved or legitimate is appalling. Especially since Europeans have so loudly (and rightly) decried the overly-militarised policies of George Bush. Talk about hypocrisy.

European opposition to Georgian membership was based on the fact that there was an ongoing conflict with Russia and until this issue was resolved, a Map could not be offered. This conflict is the precise reason why both Republicans and Democrats in the US wanted to give Georgia a Map. If Nato extended a hand to Georgia, it would have deterred the Russians from getting aggressive and it would have given the west more leverage to pressure President Saakashvili to address the problems of South Ossetia and Abkhazia responsibly. By refusing the give Georgia a Map, Germany, France and the rest of the alliance gave the Kremlin a veto on Georgia's Nato membership, which is totally unacceptable. Now look where we are – once again, armed conflict in the backyard of Europe that European diplomacy has been unable to resolve in any reasonable way.

Europe needs to wake up and smell the jet fumes from the Russian planes bombing Georgia. Russia is a great power and the Kremlin pays great power politics. America understands this, Europe does not. For too long Moscow has successfully divided Europe. Putin split the old members of the EU from the new members as he bullied Poland and Estonia without any opposition from countries such as Germany and France. The Kremlin fractured Europe over the issue of energy, with Berlin politicians selling their souls for a fix of natural gas despite the worries of allied countries to the east and north. Moscow also tried to pit the US and parts of Europe against each other on the issue of missile defence. Europe has stood silently by, allowing European principles to be trampled again and again.

All too often, Nato is painted in shades of war by the far left. But the legacy of the alliance is not one of conflict. During the cold war, non-democratic countries such as Spain, Portugal, Greece and Turkey became members and over time they made the transition to fully-fledged democracies. Nato is as much about making peace among its members, as it is deterring external attack. It was Nato that created the space for Franco-German rapprochement in the 1950s that saw the birth of the EU. Had the alliance extended a hand to Georgia and Ukraine, it would have ensured the extension of peace and security in eastern Europe and these countries' future inclusion in a democratic and peaceful continent. By caving in to Russian bluffs about "balance of power" and "spheres of influence" Europe opened the door for war. It is a door that will now be exceedingly difficult to close, and all the while "new" Europe looks askance at "old" Europe and America, wondering if Nato membership is worth anything at all. They are right to have their doubts. I share them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...12/russia.nato

Germany gets a significant amount of its oil from Russia so it caved to pressure. Quite unfortunate.

[MXM]

Originally Posted by jetsetter

Georgia should have been part of NATO months ago but Germany and France held back. Had Georgia been part of NATO Russia would not have attacked.

Erm, so Georgia's first move in S.Ossetia was all right by you? If it was a part of NATO cleaning the area with rocket artillery is fine as long as it's inside the (technically!) your own country? Russians may have used it as an excuse to go in there, but there's little doubt that Saakashvilli started it.



Btw, cool article: http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-sou...-of-my-dreams/
He writes with a *bit* of cynical tone and doesn't really analyze the politics behind, but I like his columns

[vyllu]

Originally Posted by MXM

Erm, so Georgia's first move in S.Ossetia was all right by you? If it was a part of NATO cleaning the area with rocket artillery is fine as long as it's inside the (technically!) your own country? Russians may have used it as an excuse to go in there, but there's little doubt that Saakashvilli started it.

I would just like to remind everybody here that when the Chechen crisis started Russia proclaimed that what happens in their country is no one elses problem and they will handle things themselves. Now on the other hand they march in to Georgia.

That sounds fair doesn't it?

Also there are no unbiased reports of how things started on how (or keeping an open mind 'if') the Georgians were provoked into attacking.

[MXM]

Wars and politics are never fair, and Chechen situation is fucked up, but that's a different subject. We're talking about this one incident here. I'm surprised with the "shame that Georgia isn't part of NATO" response. Because in that case we would rather have a) most of S.Ossetia wiped out or b) half of the world technically in war with Russia. I don't see either of these situations as better in any way.

[jetsetter]

Erm, so Georgia's first move in S.Ossetia was all right by you? If it was a part of NATO cleaning the area with rocket artillery is fine as long as it's inside the (technically!) your own country? Russians may have used it as an excuse to go in there, but there's little doubt that Saakashvilli started it.

As mentioned above, Russia's actions in its breakaway region of Chechnya were quite a bit more brutal than the actions of Georgia in South Ossetia. Had Georgia been part of NATO it would have most likely not attacked South Ossetia due to pressure from other NATO members, in addition Russia would not attack a NATO country period.

[jayhawk]

According to Virginia Governor Tim Kain, Barack Obama was the reason there was a ceasefire:

Originally Posted by Tim Kaine

The Senator's goal was to be tough and smart, and so when the action happened on Thursday, he immediately called for a ceasefire, condemned the unwarranted use of force by Russia. It was a bad crisis for the world. It required tough words, but also a smart approach to call on the international community to step in -- and I'm very, very happy that the senator's request for a ceasefire has been complied with.

So...do you think he said as he was licking Obamas shoes?

Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh

So the Russians, apparently, according to Tim Kaine, heard Obama call for a ceasefire, and then they complied. Tim Kaine says that was both the strong and smart position on Obama's part. Well, then didn't Russia ignore Obama's declaration in Berlin, that we are all global citizens? Obama goes to Berlin, makes a speech: We're all one world, we're all one citizen, we're all global citizens, conflicts are over. Apparently the Russians didn't listen then, but now all of a sudden with Obama on the golf course half a planet away in Hawaii, all of a sudden Putin and Medvedev heard what Obama said, and started biting their nails and said, "Uh-oh. Oh God. We're caught! Pull back. Ceasefire!" Don't make me barf. See how powerful Obama is even from a golf course?

[un-dee]

Originally Posted by jetsetter

As mentioned above, Russia's actions in its breakaway region of Chechnya were quite a bit more brutal than the actions of Georgia in South Ossetia

One big wrong doesn't make a smaller wrong right. Seriously, what the fuck? Just imagine you have family in that region.
I completely despise Russias military campaign but its not that Georgia is completely innocent here, Saakashwili isn't really they guy you'd think he is.

[SuperStalin]

Originally Posted by un-dee

One big wrong doesn't make a smaller wrong right. Seriously, what the fuck? Just imagine you have family in that region.
I completely despise Russias military campaign but its not that Georgia is completely innocent here, Saakashwili isn't really they guy you'd think he is.

Saakashvili is an American lapdog - chihuahua - He barked at the bear, bit its finger, expecting that America will intervene with military. He probably had no idea that he's just an expendable pawn in a game concerning US interior politics, rather than American-Russian relations.