South Ossetia War

[nist7]

Neither side is "right." There's no denying the fact that Georgia did initiate the first major military offensive against South Ossetia's capital. They made the first move. And Russia, on the other hand, responded by hitting back against Georgia as well, including civilians, which ain't good.

[h-p]

Originally Posted by Medvedev

We have always been a peace-loving state. Practically there is not a single occasion in the history of the Russian or Soviet state when we first started military actions. We have not attacked anyone, we only secured the rights and dignity of people as peacekeepers.

[argatoga]

Is it just me or does it seem that the Neo-Cons still think the Cold War is still being fought? Russia is in the right, it was Saakashvili who attacked peace keeping forces and broke International Law, yet Russia is being blamed by Bush and co.

[jetsetter]

I do hope you realize that the conflict had nothing to do with the Georgian attack. Putin had wanted to bring Georgia back into the fold for years. And for years Russian military aircraft have been violating Georgian airspace.

The small Georgian attack gave (much smaller as compared to something like Chechnya) Putin the excuse he had been waiting for.

[the Interceptor]

Originally Posted by argatoga

Is it just me or does it seem that the Neo-Cons still think the Cold War is still being fought? Russia is in the right, it was Saakashvili who attacked peace keeping forces and broke International Law, yet Russia is being blamed by Bush and co.

If Russia was in the right, what are they doing now?

Let's sum up what has happened: Georgia made the first move by attacking Russians in South Ossetia. That was wrong obviously, but the question remains: what were the Russians doing there? Even if South Ossetia is mostly inhabited by Russians, it is Georgian soil. And I don't buy that they were there to keep the peace. If it was peace they wanted, why did the following things occur? The Russians moved into South Ossetia to defend their countrymen and push Georgian troops back. After a few days, a cease fire from both sides was set up and the Georgian troops pulled back. But the Russian troops moved further into Georgia territory - why?

Then, a peace treaty was signed, first by Saakashvilli, the by Medvedev. Both parties agreed to fully retract their forces. Georgia did so, Russia didn't even though they promised to - why?

Sorry, but this is exactly what Jetsetter said. Russia didn't like where Georgia was going with it's pipeline and it's contacts with Europe. In my book, the attack by Georgian Forces in South Ossetia even was provoked by the Russians. What first seemed like retaliation now is a campaign to crush Georgia as it is. And I don't like that at all, not only for the sake of Georgia, but also because this is a major move by Russia that could end very badly. They're just doing it, and the western world will have to respond - not good!

[jetsetter]

In addition to what I mentioned earlier the reports of thousands of Ossetian civilians dying from Georgian artillery strikes has no basis in fact. Those inflated numbers were released early in the conflict by Russian sources. Independent organizations that have gone in can't confirm more than a few dozen Ossetians who died from artillery. The problem is that the South Ossetian militia has been burning down Georgian houses and such based on death tolls from Russian media sources and the Russian media is controlled by the Russian government.

[argatoga]

For the guy who anonymously neg rep'ed me here is my research:

http://www.reuters.com/article/world...nnel=0&sp=true

(Reuters) - Georgian forces pulled out of the breakaway South Ossetia region on Sunday after three days of fighting and Russian troops took most of the capital.

Here is a chronology of events in South Ossetia:

November 1989 - South Ossetia declares autonomy from the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic, triggering three months of fighting.

December 1990 - Georgia and South Ossetia begin a new armed conflict which lasts until 1992.

June 1992 - Russian, Georgian and South Ossetian leaders meet in Sochi, sign an armistice and agree the creation of a tripartite peacekeeping force of 500 soldiers from each entity.

November 1993 - South Ossetia drafts its own constitution.

November 1996 - South Ossetia elects its first president.

December 2001 - South Ossetia elects Eduard Kokoity as president. In 2002 he asks Moscow to recognize the republic's independence and absorb it into Russia.

January 2005 - Russia gives guarded approval to Georgia's plan to grant broad autonomy to South Ossetia in exchange for dropping its bid for independence.

November 2006 - South Ossetia overwhelmingly endorses its split with Tbilisi in a referendum. Georgia's prime minister says this is part of a Russian campaign to stoke a war.

April 2007 - Georgia's parliament approves a law to create a temporary administration in South Ossetia, raising tension with Russia.

June 2007 - South Ossetian separatists say Georgia attacked Tskhinvali with mortar and sniper fire. Tbilisi denies this.

October 2007 - Talks hosted by the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe between Georgia and South Ossetia break down.

March 2008 - South Ossetia asks the world to recognize its independence from Georgia following the West's support for Kosovo's secession from Serbia.

March 2008 - Georgia's bid to join NATO, though unsuccessful, prompts Russia's parliament to urge the Kremlin to recognize the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

April 2008 - South Ossetia rejects a Georgian power-sharing deal, insists on full independence.

August 2008 - Georgian forces attack South Ossetia's capital Tskhinvali to re-take the breakaway region. Russia says its troops were responding to the assault and Georgia's Saakashvili says the two countries were at war.

-- Georgian forces pull out after three days of fighting. Russia says its troops control most of Tskhinvali.

-- Russia bombs a military airfield outside Tbilisi.

-- Russia says that the death toll in fighting stands at 2,000. Georgia said on Friday that it had lost up to 300 people killed, mainly civilians.

+ YouTube Video

[the Interceptor]

So?

[jetsetter]

Still no justification for what Russia has and is continuously doing.

POTI, Georgia - Russian soldiers took about 20 Georgians in military uniform prisoner at a key Black Sea port in western Georgia on Tuesday, blindfolding them and holding them at gunpoint, and commandeered American Humvees awaiting shipment back to the United States.

The move came as a small column of Russian tanks and armored vehicles left the strategic city of Gori in the first sign of a Russian pullback of troops from Georgia after a cease-fire intended to end fighting that reignited Cold War tensions.

The two countries on Tuesday also exchanged prisoners. However, Russian soldiers also seized Georgians in Poti — the country's key oil port city — and commandeered four U.S. Humvees that had been used in U.S.-Georgian military exercises.

It was the latest example of Russia still demonstrating its military prowess, leaving Georgians to wonder if Russia planned an extended military occupation or was still inflicting punishment before adhering to a promised troop withdrawal.

At an emergency meeting in Brussels, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her 25 NATO counterparts demanded that Russia immediately withdraw its troops from Georgia, a U.S. ally that wants to join NATO.

"It is time for the Russian president to keep his word to withdraw Russian forces," Rice told a news conference.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov lashed back, telling a hastily gathered news conference that the alliance was supporting an aggressive Georgia.

NATO "is trying to make a victim of the aggressor, to absolve of guilt a criminal regime, to save a collapsed regime; and is taking a course to rearm the current leaders of Georgia," Lavrov said.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev told French President Nicolas Sarkozy by phone Tuesday that Russian troops will withdraw from most of Georgia by Friday, the Kremlin said — some to Russia, others to South Ossetia and a surrounding "security zone" set in 1999.

In Poti, Russian forces blocked access to the city's naval and commercial ports on Tuesday morning and towed the missile boat Dioskuria, one of the navy's most sophisticated vessels, out of sight of observers. A loud explosion was heard minutes later. Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shote Utiashvili said the Russian military blew up the Dioskuria.

Several hours later, an Associated Press photographer saw Russian trucks and armored personnel carriers leaving the port with about 20 blindfolded and handcuffed men riding on them.

Poti Mayor Vano Taginadze said the Russians seized 22 military and police troops because the Georgians refused to let Russian armored vehicles enter the port. The Georgians were taken to the nearby Senaki military base, now controlled by Russia.

There were conflicting reports from Georgian officials late Tuesday on whether the men were freed, or some were still detained, or all were to be released Wednesday.

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said officials were looking into the reported theft of the Humvees.

The deputy head of Russia's general staff, Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, said Russian forces plan to remain in Poti until a local administration is formed, but did not give further details. He also justified previous seizures of Georgian soldiers as necessary to crack down on soldiers who were "out of any kind of control ... acting without command."

An AP television crew has seen Russian troops in and around Poti all week, with local port officials saying the Russians had destroyed radar, boats and other Coast Guard equipment there.

A Georgian official also said Russians were slowing down food aid shipments to Poti.

"Right now there are Russian soldiers and tanks at Poti," Georgian Finance Minister Nika Gilavri said. "They want to open every single container" and inspect them.

Russian troops last week drove Georgian forces out of South Ossetia, where Georgia on Aug. 7 launched a heavy artillery barrage in the separatist Georgian province with close ties to Russia. Fighting also has flared in a second Russian-backed separatist region, Abkhazia.

The short war has driven tensions between Russia and the West to some of their highest levels since the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union.

Tensions also have flared between Ukraine and Russia amid fears that Moscow might next set sights on Ukraine, another ex-Soviet republic whose government is seeking NATO membership.

The two countries sparred Tuesday over Russia's use of naval base in the port of Sevastopol, which it is renting from Ukraine. The Kremlin has made it clear it wants the Russian ships to remain in Sevastopol even when the current lease agreement expires in 2017.

Ukraine's pro-Western President, Victor Yushchenko, sided with Georgia in its conflict with Russia and moved to restrict the movement of Russian ships in the port, saying the vessels' movements were subject to Kiev's approval.

Ukraine's foreign minister, Volodymyr Ohryzko, later sought to cool tensions and said that Ukraine will not physically prevent Russian ships from entering and leaving the naval base.

Meanwhile in central Georgia, a small column of Russian tanks and armored vehicles left Gori, and a Russian officer said they were heading back to South Ossetia and then Russia. Col. Igor Konoshenkov, a Russian military officer at the scene, gave no timetable for when the unit would reach Russia.

But other Russian troops and military vehicles remained in and around Gori following the pullout. A cease-fire requires both Georgia and Russia to return to positions held before the fighting began.

"It didn't take them really three or four days to get into Georgia, and it really shouldn't take them three or four days to get out," Gordon Johndroe, a spokesman for the National Security Council, told reporters in Crawford, Texas, where President Bush is spending time at his ranch.

"It needs to happen faster; that's what they've agreed to," Johndroe said.

Russia's foreign minister called a snap news conference in Moscow to respond to Tuesday's remarks by NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, who accused Russia of occupying Georgia and said "there can be no business as normal under the current circumstances."

Lavrov said Russian withdrawal depended "first of all, on the return of Georgian troops" to their permanent bases.

"This still hasn't happened. Every day several episodes still occur when our servicemen detain Georgian troops" who haven't returned to their bases as agreed, he said.

Also Tuesday, Russia and Georgia exchanged 20 prisoners of war in an effort to reduce tensions. Two Russian military helicopters landed in Igoeti, where Georgian Security Council head Alexander Lomaia told reporters that 15 Georgians and five Russians were exchanged. "It went smoothly," he said. The operation also witnessed by Russian Maj. Gen. Vyacheslav Borisov, who commands troops in the area.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080819/...georgia_russia

[argatoga]

Originally Posted by the Interceptor

If Russia was in the right, what are they doing now?

Let's sum up what has happened: Georgia made the first move by attacking Russians in South Ossetia. That was wrong obviously, but the question remains: what were the Russians doing there? Even if South Ossetia is mostly inhabited by Russians, it is Georgian soil. And I don't buy that they were there to keep the peace. If it was peace they wanted, why did the following things occur? The Russians moved into South Ossetia to defend their countrymen and push Georgian troops back. After a few days, a cease fire from both sides was set up and the Georgian troops pulled back. But the Russian troops moved further into Georgia territory - why?

Then, a peace treaty was signed, first by Saakashvilli, the by Medvedev. Both parties agreed to fully retract their forces. Georgia did so, Russia didn't even though they promised to - why?

South Ossetia never wanted to be part of Georgia. If Russia wanted to outright conquer it they had plenty of time to do so before now. Russia was there to keep the peace because Georgia had tried to outright subjugate the people in South Ossetia several times.

I can understand Russia keeping troops there to stop Georgia from retaliating against South Ossetia again.

Originally Posted by the Interceptor

Sorry, but this is exactly what Jetsetter said. Russia didn't like where Georgia was going with it's pipeline and it's contacts with Europe. In my book, the attack by Georgian Forces in South Ossetia even was provoked by the Russians. What first seemed like retaliation now is a campaign to crush Georgia as it is. And I don't like that at all, not only for the sake of Georgia, but also because this is a major move by Russia that could end very badly. They're just doing it, and the western world will have to respond - not good!

Russia could very well have motives of absorbing the pro Russian provinces, but it doesn't change the fact that they are defending the autonomy of independent regions against Georgian aggression.

[the Interceptor]

But what are Russian troops, which should be already gone by now refering to Moscow, doing in the Georgian mainland then? Georgian troops already have pulled back from South Ossetia days ago, and despite Medvedev saying that the Russian troops will pull back as well, they still are not only in South Ossetia, but in main Georgia as well. Why?

And acknowledging South Ossetia as an independent state would have brought big trouble for the Georgians living there. What do you think would happen to them if South Ossetia would separate from Georgia and join with Russia?

[argatoga]

Originally Posted by the Interceptor

But what are Russian troops, which should be already gone by now refering to Moscow, doing in the Georgian mainland then? Georgian troops already have pulled back from South Ossetia days ago, and despite Medvedev saying that the Russian troops will pull back as well, they still are not only in South Ossetia, but in main Georgia as well. Why?

They aren't there to outright conquer all of Georgia, I doubt they would want to deal with the insurgences that would result from that.

Hypothetically they could be there to do as much damage as they can to set Georgia back and discourage them from future aggression. They also could be seizing the opportunity to hurt Georgian oil and increase their own profits. I never said either side was perfect.

[jetsetter]

I never said either side was perfect.

You do acknowledge the fact that Russia attacked and leveled its breakaway region of Chechnya? Chechen civilian death toll for those operations numbers over 50,000.

[the Interceptor]

Okay, let's make a thought experiment here...

Let's say the USSR dies and splits up into separate countries, such as Georgia. Obviously, there will be people in such countries that liked the USSR and therefore are drawn towards Russia. Such people mostly live in the regions Abkhazia and South Ossetia of Georgia (with North Ossetia lying on Russian soil). Obviously, those two regions will try to become a separate pro-Russian state and split from pro-western mainland Georgia.

Since the appropriate actions didn't go off without armed fights, Russia installed a peacekeeping force of Soldiers in such regions. As the Russian state has interest in those regions to become independent of Georgia, they might generously look away when anti-Georgian militia forces attack Georgian people living in South-Ossetia. Since Georgia fears that the Russian influence on their country could become too big (and being absorbed by Russia again in the process), they obviously try to keep all of Georgia together as one country. But since South Ossetian troops keep on attacking Georgian people and the Russian peacekeeping force just lets it happen, Georgian troops attack said South-Ossetian forces to stabilize the region.

Moscow declares an act of unprovoked agression on Russian citizens and their peacekeeping force and therefore enters South Ossetia to fight Georgian Troops back. However, they do not stop there, rather than enter Georgian mainland to basically split the country in half and destabilize it enough for it to give up Abkhazia and South-Ossetia.

The goal is simple: they want to have their foot in the door that Georgia wanted to open towards the west. They let the Georgian military strike happen to have a justification to occupy a former USSR member to prevent such states from becoming pro-western. Not only a working plan for Georgia so far, but also a lesson for similar states such as the Ukraine.

Now tell me that this is not what's happening right now!

[jetsetter]

Russian troops entered the port of Poti on Tuesday to take US military equipment left behind after a joint Georgian, US military exercise. The movements of Russian forces in Georgia raised questions about whether Russia was fulfilling its side of the cease-fire intended to end the short but intense fighting between Georgians, Russians and its allies.

Russian soldiers in a armored personnel carrier tow away a US-built Humvee, in the Black Sea port city of Poti, western Georgia, Tuesday, Aug. 19, 2008. Russian troops entered the port of Poti Tuesday, to remove military equipment left behind after a joint Georgian, US military exercise.

For those who are wondering, Poti is port city in Georgia proper, ie not in South Ossetia. As you can see they are looting vehicles and equipment.

For those who are wondering why the equipment was still there, it does sometimes take weeks for shipment to become available.

[h-p]

So the russians are basicly stealing US property. Somehow it doesn't suprise me.

[jetsetter]

Originally Posted by h-p

So the russians are basicly stealing US property. Somehow it doesn't suprise me.

It shouldn't.

Go back to right before the conflict. The Russian military is fairly substandard. They have the firepower but limited precision and training. For them to pull off the Georgia operation they have to be preparing in advance to the initial Georgian strike. A Russian action has been in the works for years.

[argatoga]

Originally Posted by jetsetter

You do acknowledge the fact that Russia attacked and leveled its breakaway region of Chechnya? Chechen civilian death toll for those operations numbers over 50,000.

This has nothing to do with Chechnya. Just as not all US foreign policy has to do with Iraq. Yes Russia has been very hard on Chechnya, but this is Georgia and unrelated.

Originally Posted by the Interceptor

Okay, let's make a thought experiment here...

Let's say the USSR dies and splits up into separate countries, such as Georgia. Obviously, there will be people in such countries that liked the USSR and therefore are drawn towards Russia. Such people mostly live in the regions Abkhazia and South Ossetia of Georgia (with North Ossetia lying on Russian soil). Obviously, those two regions will try to become a separate pro-Russian state and split from pro-western mainland Georgia.

Since the appropriate actions didn't go off without armed fights, Russia installed a peacekeeping force of Soldiers in such regions. As the Russian state has interest in those regions to become independent of Georgia, they might generously look away when anti-Georgian militia forces attack Georgian people living in South-Ossetia. Since Georgia fears that the Russian influence on their country could become too big (and being absorbed by Russia again in the process), they obviously try to keep all of Georgia together as one country. But since South Ossetian troops keep on attacking Georgian people and the Russian peacekeeping force just lets it happen, Georgian troops attack said South-Ossetian forces to stabilize the region.

Moscow declares an act of unprovoked agression on Russian citizens and their peacekeeping force and therefore enters South Ossetia to fight Georgian Troops back. However, they do not stop there, rather than enter Georgian mainland to basically split the country in half and destabilize it enough for it to give up Abkhazia and South-Ossetia.

The goal is simple: they want to have their foot in the door that Georgia wanted to open towards the west. They let the Georgian military strike happen to have a justification to occupy a former USSR member to prevent such states from becoming pro-western. Not only a working plan for Georgia so far, but also a lesson for similar states such as the Ukraine.

Now tell me that this is not what's happening right now!

The people of Abkhazia and South-Ossetia want to be part of Russia, let them be part of Russia. Russia won't take the whole of Georgia, it isn't worth it for them. The Pro-Russia Abkhazia and South-Ossetia hate the Georgians, why force them to share the same county?

[jetsetter]

Just as not all US foreign policy has to do with Iraq. Yes Russia has been very hard on Chechnya, but this is Georgia and unrelated.

It is closely related. Russia's actions in Chechnya show that Russia does not have a problem a country using force to deal with a breakaway region. This indicates that Russia doesn't really care about South Ossetia(they don't) and are in Ossetia and Georgia proper (they are) for different reasons.

Why are the Russians in Poti?? Why are they looting?? Why are they systematically destroying Georgian equipment?? Why are they letting Ossetian militia burn Georgian homes?? Why is Russia still in Georgia proper??

[argatoga]

Originally Posted by jetsetter

It is closely related. Russia's actions in Chechnya show that Russia does not have a problem a country using force to deal with a breakaway region. This indicates that Russia doesn't really care about South Ossetia(they don't) and are in Ossetia and Georgia proper (they are) for different reasons.

It doesn't matter if Russia doesn't care about the Ossetians, what should matter is what the Ossetians want.

Originally Posted by jetsetter

Why are the Russians in Poti?? Why are they looting?? Why are they systematically destroying Georgian equipment?? Why are they letting Ossetian militia burn Georgian homes?? Why is Russia still in Georgia proper??

I agree with Interceptor's point that they want to force Georgia to give up on those regions completely. The more Georgia drags their feet, the more of their shit gets broken.