South Ossetia War

[the Interceptor]

I'm not sure if this discussion remains to be fertile if you guys keep on saying such things, given it has even been. It has for me by the way.

[jetsetter]

Originally Posted by SuperStalin

Yep. The Russians are evil, we already established that as axiom.

There is them lacking advanced guided munitions.

[ViperVX]

Originally Posted by jetsetter

I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians killed more civilians in this recent conflict than the Georgians.

Well empty words are good and always interesting to read/listen. I suppose u have facts to back it up or?

Anyway it's a very ulgy situation, good thing no sanctions were implemented against Russia, and Osetia an Abkhazia got their independence.

I know it's not really independence until all the states signed off on it, but that's a really good start for those ppl who for about 15 years survived 2 wars for basicly nothing.

[jetsetter]

I know it's not really independence until all the states signed off on it, but that's a really good start for those ppl who for about 15 years survived 2 wars for basicly nothing.

The only countries that have recognized South Ossetia or supported Russia are as follows:

Russia, Belarus (Russia's bitch), Tajikistan, and Venezuela (hoping to get a discount on those new weapons I suspect).

With company like that I don't expect recognition come soon. All of the more important countries either don't support South Ossetia and Russia or have declared neutrality on the issue.

[ViperVX]

Originally Posted by jetsetter

The only countries that have recognized South Ossetia or supported Russia are as follows:

Russia, Belarus (Russia's bitch), Tajikistan, and Venezuela (hoping to get a discount on those new weapons I suspect).

With company like that I don't expect recognition come soon. All of the more important countries either don't support South Ossetia and Russia or have declared neutrality on the issue.

Well the most important thing for those ppl, is that one of the major Military forces in the world supports them. So the result is, 300k ppl (from those regions) are now happy ppl, the rest stays as it is. Those ppl don't even need all the other countries, the most of their relatives/friends are living in Russia, they'll grow enough food, rebuild their small country and live basicly like Estonia or Latvia does, they don't need much. And if they ever need backing, the 200.000 nukes are less than 100 miles away.

You know the best part of this is:

Russians dont care about USA, not a single bit, everyone knows there will never be a war, but Americans (maybe it's my false opition btw), judging by reactons, amount of media coverage etc, speeches by presidential candidates, really care about what Russia is doing. And as it's been for the past like 80 years, both contries will bicker, doing absolutely nothing but throwing words.

Let's put it in this metaphore:

Russia - The Evil = A drunk soldier in the snow, surrounded by "friendly" bears.
America - The Saint = A fat guy in his living room watching Leno and eating crisps.

[SuperStalin]

Then there's oil, Russian access to the middle east, access to water, seas, then the access of the Middle East to drinkable water etc. etc.

[Firecat]

Originally Posted by the Interceptor

Actually it did, you just didn't see where I was trying to go with it.

I understood what you were trying to convey. My point was just to show that the same analogy can fit a variety of topics. You can use it to describe what Georgians are doing to South Ossetians and vice-versa

I also don't think that personalizing a political discussion in such a way is a good idea. You're not going to sway me from my position by comparing it to my sister getting raped by home invaders

It doesn't matter anymore...I was done with this before that other dude came in here quoting me with nothing to add to the discussion.

[H0nzik]

Originally Posted by ViperVX

Well the most important thing for those ppl, is that one of the major Military forces in the world supports them. So the result is, 300k ppl (from those regions) are now happy ppl, the rest stays as it is. Those ppl don't even need all the other countries, the most of their relatives/friends are living in Russia, they'll grow enough food, rebuild their small country and live basicly like Estonia or Latvia does, they don't need much. And if they ever need backing, the 200.000 nukes are less than 100 miles away.

Yeah the separatists will be very happy, but certainly not the substantial Georgian minority in the area. But there clearly isn't a good solution at this stage. And I totally don't get the Estonia and Latvia analogy, first of all, there was no recent armed conflict in these countries and secondly, it will take very long to any part of Georgia to even get close to the current living standard in those two countries.

[ViperVX]

Originally Posted by H0nzik

Yeah the separatists will be very happy, but certainly not the substantial Georgian minority in the area. But there clearly isn't a good solution at this stage. And I totally don't get the Estonia and Latvia analogy, first of all, there was no recent armed conflict in these countries and secondly, it will take very long to any part of Georgia to even get close to the current living standard in those two countries.

I wasn't talking about the "same" conditions, i was talking about what is "enough for them".

Better than that, the current solution announecd by EU yesterday is perfect. They'd create "some" peacekeeping presense on the borders, that way US will never be able to use Georgia as a stategic platform for a war against Iran.

Also if you read wiki quotes from the previous page, there is no Gorgian minority in the area, most of them if not all of them moved to Georgia after the 91 conflict.

[the Interceptor]

Originally Posted by ViperVX

Also if you read wiki quotes from the previous page, there is no Gorgian minority in the area, most of them if not all of them moved to Georgia after the 91 conflict.

Wiki:

Because the statistical office of Georgia was not able to conduct the 2002 Georgian census in South Ossetia, the present composition of the population of South Ossetia is unknown,[58] although according to some estimates there were 45,000 ethnic Ossetians and 17,500 ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia in 2007.[59]

Abkhazia (2003):
Georgians 21,3%
Abkhaz 43,8%
Russians 10,8%
Armenians 20,8%
Greeks 0,7%

[ViperVX]

Originally Posted by the Interceptor

Wiki:

Because the statistical office of Georgia was not able to conduct the 2002 Georgian census in South Ossetia, the present composition of the population of South Ossetia is unknown,[58] although according to some estimates there were 45,000 ethnic Ossetians and 17,500 ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia in 2007.[59]

Abkhazia (2003):
Georgians 21,3%
Abkhaz 43,8%
Russians 10,8%
Armenians 20,8%
Greeks 0,7%

Well if' it's unknown, it's unknown. Also even if it's 45.000 vs 17.000, it's still by far the majority.
Also the official data, over 90% of Osetian population have Russian pasports and therefore are considered russian citizens. So Basicly Georgia attacked about 40.000 Russians. After 9/11 in the States, where 15.000 (i've seen a figer 7000 somewhere, not sure which one is correct) US citizens were killed or so, America started 2 wars.

[the Interceptor]

Originally Posted by ViperVX

Well if' it's unknown, it's unknown. Also even if it's 45.000 vs 17.000, it's still by far the majority.

True, but you said that there are almost no Georgians left in the area. 17,000 our of 45,000 may be a minority, but those are 17,000 people that have a problem now.

Originally Posted by ViperVX

Also the official data, over 90% of Osetian population have Russian pasports and therefore are considered russian citizens. So Basicly Georgia attacked about 40.000 Russians.

Have you ever asked yourself why these people have Russian passports when South Ossetia is Georgian soil? Giving Russian passports to South Ossetians will not only bind the region closer to Russia, it also allows Russia - according to their law - to retaliate by military force when Russian citizens - or in this case South Ossetians - are being attacked.

I understand your efforts in this matter ViperVX, but I can't help the feeling that you constantly twist and pick facts to help your case.

[H0nzik]

Well if there are no more Gerogians in South Ossetia, then that's probably even worse. Or is people being forced out of their homes a good thing? It's also known as ethnic cleansing. The most desirable outcome by far would be if all the people could live where they were, in peace. And Russia's efforts were only aimed at alienating the Ossetians from the Georgians.
Btw: 20-30% is a very significant minority in my book.

[ViperVX]

As i said on the previous page, what Russian army did was Bad, but what Georgians deed was pure evil. You simply DO NOT give an army an order to clear a region of "non-followers" using any means, including the fact, that over 70% of population are those non-followers.

Also u've read yourself that the thing started back in 91, so it wasn't news for any side, that the region was unstable. U may say i am picking my facts, but the truth is my bag of facts is 20 times as large as the one that Georgia can provide u with.

I still think u are missing the fact: Who attacked who, and who attacked first. It even was confirmed by Italian Prime Minister today, that Georgia was 1st to fire. You dont think u get to fire mortar rockets in the middle of the night at a unarmed 40-50k russian citizens, killing by different reports 2k-15k of them, for 3 days not providing a safe passage for medic group to help the wounded, and then walk away, covering that by "constitutional order" operation, which by the way condraditcs with legitimate 1991 treaty signed by several parties, including Georgia.

BTW there are multiple reports on "questionable" russian news portals, about Georgia gathering forces on the border line, buying weapons, getting "help" from US, maybe true, probably false, but if they do it again, i don't know what's gonna happen, but there will be a lot of blood spilled.

To kinda close this discussion i will not be posting anymore in this topic, as the whole thing is ugly as hell.

[the Interceptor]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it didn't happen. Nor am I saying that Georgia didn't make a big mistake by doing it. But things like the number of deaths in that attack and the "fact" that there are no Georgians in the region anymore have to be challenged. Nevertheless, you present them as fact. If you can prove them you are very welcome to do so, but as long as there are reports with different figures, doubts remain.

[Firecat]

Job well done...here's your check.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080903/..._wh/us_georgia

[tigger]

Originally Posted by argatoga

I still see Russia becoming a super power, they have the resources and, now, a capitalistic system to exploit it. With strong ruthless men like Putin in charge Russia will develop quickly.

Putin is too short sighted and simplistic to make Russia a real superpower again. But Russia really seems to need a firm hand to guide it, at the moment.

Originally Posted by SuperStalin

As for the Russian conventional army being bad... well, let's just say that nobody would like to test that.

Only because of nukes. Their overlapping and corrupt military bureaucracy, their equipment, training, etc is just sad. No one want's to fight a war against an army of 1.5 million men, but if it came down to it, any modern army would show the Russians the meaning of attrition.

Originally Posted by ViperVX

The program of agressive development those kinds of weapons has started in early 70s, hasn't stopped since.

That's all well and good, but you need a decent running truck to move those weapons, and food to feed the guy (or conscript and 2 officers, in this case) who operate it. Nevermind that I think a lot of that stopped with the fall of the Soviet Union. Russia didn't even have the money to give it's troops decent rations a few years ago, I doubt they were developing world class weaponry.

Originally Posted by ViperVX

Only thing that interests me atm, Georgia haven't listed or announced the number of losses/casualties, i assume it's a sizable amount.

From what I've read, most of the Georgian forces fled or surrendered before ever even meeting a superior force of Russians. Given that, I wouldn't be surprised if their casualties are fairly small.

Originally Posted by ViperVX

Better than that, the current solution announecd by EU yesterday is perfect. They'd create "some" peacekeeping presense on the borders, that way US will never be able to use Georgia as a stategic platform for a war against Iran.

We can leave striking Iran (and god forbids it ever comes to that, it will be WW3) to the Israelis. No way they'll ever let Iran get nuclear arms. Besides, NATO already has an airbase in Turkey. I really don't see the strategic value of bringing Georgia into NATO, especially with the idiotic decisions Saakashvili has made and how much it pisses Russia off.

Originally Posted by Firecat

Job well done...here's your check.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080903/..._wh/us_georgia

Not for re-arming them? Whatever. There will be American boots on the ground there once things stabilize to start training the Georgians again.