The Islamic State of Sweden

[Roland]

I know many might not read the previous post because it is long, but please read it, this is a very imporantant subject and i tred to focus on the essens of the prob rather than the result...

[tloekke]

It's not just the government that carries the responsibilities of integrating, immigrants need also to integrate themselves, learn the language good and not just huddle together with other immigrants.

[Roland]

What u say is definetly true, but the structure of our socity vastly minimizing their possibilities of integrating. For ex how do u really learn a language? By practicing it, and a job is the best way of practicing it. And many imigrants come from othe cultures where the ability to provide for ypur family is a big status issue. If u can't be indioendent and have lost your honor it's just normal that u try to blame it on someone else.

The responsibility is on both sides but the government should promote integration instead of working against it.

[Ultra_Kool_Dude]

Originally Posted by Roland

OK, i've been off the forums for a while and saw this now (been having a shit load of finals)

Anyways, first of all i must say that everything this news clip said aboud Rosengård is true. It has been written about in swedish media quite a lot and those who think FOX is BSing can just search on articles on www.aftonbladet.se, www.expressen.se, www.dn.se, or www.svd.se, the two last ones are better but i dont think it matters much cause most of u dont know swedish.

However i must say that these facts that are presented does not apply on all of Sweden in the same scale, just Rosengård (a part of thr city Malmö) and some other isolated areas aswell. In Sweden all in all there are about 10 % imigrants, which includes imigrants form all nordic countries and europe as well. So not all are muslimes.

Then it is always good to look at all american news with critical eyes because it IS biosed. This apllies not just FOX but CNN, CBS et c as well. It is also imporant to look at both "sides" of the news aswell so u can form your own opinion and just dont follow biosed news. (all news are biosed by the way). In this case it can be difficult because Sweden might not be the most popular among subjects in US news.

Now back to the actual subject. Is Sweden too liberal agains imigrants. NO, absolutely not. A country can not be to liberal in that area IMO. A corner stone of camitalism is free flow of money and labour, it doesn't work without it. Juxtapositioning diffrent kinds of thougts and methodes will eventually lead to a adaptioning of the best one or a combination. Without immigrants this wouldn't be possible.

The problem is that these immigrants come to this society with hopes of a better future and a new life and all they encounter is a bunch of swedes with a shit load of predjudice about forigners who shove them together instead of trying to itegrate the to our society. The one thing that helps integration the most, a job, is denied to them. Why u might ask. Well just because we have a so fucked up society that has been shaped by socialist for the better part of 70 years. The unions here in sweden are so powerfoul that they have almost put minimum wages on everything so there are even a lot of swedes going without jobs. And lets be honost who would u employ out of 4 ppl if three talked perfect swedish and the last one just new a few words if the wage would be the same. Then we have the issue that u have to be certified to do almost anything in this socity. An education from abroad might not mean shit.

Instead of a job which would lead to both better language skills and better itegration they get a shit load of money from the government (from us taxpayers) and basically they just get to live in their areas were everybody talks the same laguage etc. They they have kids which are born in the same areas and what are they??? Are they forigners or swedes??? They naturally grow up with a insecurity and hatret of swedes and the result is what u can see in Rosengård.

Of course u get pissed on the swedes, i would too. There are very few of the immigrats who actually are able to get into the swedish society just because we are to ENCLOSED rather than LIBERAL.

The problem isn't helped by that the Police have got less funding by the years either...

There u have it, short and sweet

What do you suggest as the solution?

[tloekke]

@ Roland: I can only relate to the integration system here in Norway, but I know that the government offers extensive language training. Of course I haven't taken these classes myself, so I can't vouch for the quality, but in some cases we're taking about 800 hours or so of schooling. Still we have people that don't know a single word of norwegian (though these cases are rare and often concerns elderly immigrants that came here in the 70's).
The language barrier is a vicious circle, because you won't get a job if you don't speak good enough. So in the end, the responsibility lies with the individual, and you see examples of highly educated immigrants that understood from day one that language is the key, and found their place in society. When you migrate to a different country you have to balance between keeping your own culture and embracing the other culture.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by tloekke

@ Roland: I can only relate to the integration system here in Norway, but I know that the government offers extensive language training. Of course I haven't taken these classes myself, so I can't vouch for the quality, but in some cases we're taking about 800 hours or so of schooling. Still we have people that don't know a single word of norwegian (though these cases are rare and often concerns elderly immigrants that came here in the 70's).
The language barrier is a vicious circle, because you won't get a job if you don't speak good enough. So in the end, the responsibility lies with the individual, and you see examples of highly educated immigrants that understood from day one that language is the key, and found their place in society. When you migrate to a different country you have to balance between keeping your own culture and embracing the other culture.

i totally agree with what u say and your focus on the individual responsibility. However, the individual responsibility is something that the government and society can not very easily affect. What we should try to do is to change what we can. We should drop all this BS about the unions being so powerful and let the market set wages. Then many immigrants will get a chance go get a job. Maby it is not what he/she wants to do and maby even it isn't enough to provide for the family, but then they could get the rest of the money that is needed from the government on the condition that they have a job and have first of all been provided one from the employment service (which they should attend when they get here IMO), or maby they even can find a job themselves.

These language corurses, sure they are pretty good, but they are in no way a match for real prectice through involvment in society.

[bobber69]

Roland wrote:
OK, i've been off the forums for a while and saw this now (been having a shit load of finals)

Anyways, first of all i must say that everything this news clip said aboud Rosengård is true. It has been written about in swedish media quite a lot and those who think FOX is BSing can just search on articles on www.aftonbladet.se, www.expressen.se, www.dn.se, or www.svd.se, the two last ones are better but i dont think it matters much cause most of u dont know swedish.

However i must say that these facts that are presented does not apply on all of Sweden in the same scale, just Rosengård (a part of thr city Malmö) and some other isolated areas aswell. In Sweden all in all there are about 10 % imigrants, which includes imigrants form all nordic countries and europe as well. So not all are muslimes.

Then it is always good to look at all american news with critical eyes because it IS biosed. This apllies not just FOX but CNN, CBS et c as well. It is also imporant to look at both "sides" of the news aswell so u can form your own opinion and just dont follow biosed news. (all news are biosed by the way). In this case it can be difficult because Sweden might not be the most popular among subjects in US news.

Now back to the actual subject. Is Sweden too liberal agains imigrants. NO, absolutely not. A country can not be to liberal in that area IMO. A corner stone of camitalism is free flow of money and labour, it doesn't work without it. Juxtapositioning diffrent kinds of thougts and methodes will eventually lead to a adaptioning of the best one or a combination. Without immigrants this wouldn't be possible.

The problem is that these immigrants come to this society with hopes of a better future and a new life and all they encounter is a bunch of swedes with a shit load of predjudice about forigners who shove them together instead of trying to itegrate the to our society. The one thing that helps integration the most, a job, is denied to them. Why u might ask. Well just because we have a so fucked up society that has been shaped by socialist for the better part of 70 years. The unions here in sweden are so powerfoul that they have almost put minimum wages on everything so there are even a lot of swedes going without jobs. And lets be honost who would u employ out of 4 ppl if three talked perfect swedish and the last one just new a few words if the wage would be the same. Then we have the issue that u have to be certified to do almost anything in this socity. An education from abroad might not mean shit.

Instead of a job which would lead to both better language skills and better itegration they get a shit load of money from the government (from us taxpayers) and basically they just get to live in their areas were everybody talks the same laguage etc. They they have kids which are born in the same areas and what are they??? Are they forigners or swedes??? They naturally grow up with a insecurity and hatret of swedes and the result is what u can see in Rosengård.

Of course u get pissed on the swedes, i would too. There are very few of the immigrats who actually are able to get into the swedish society just because we are to ENCLOSED rather than LIBERAL.

The problem isn't helped by that the Police have got less funding by the years either...

There u have it, short and sweet

I absolutely agree with you, I just couldn't bother writing all that down. So thank you for doing it for all of us buddy It's exactly the same problem in Denmark, and everyone are frustrated about it.
What I think should be done is to take away all the money given to people without jobs. Because in Scandinavia, you can live a "decent" life with a place to live and clothes and food, without ever having moved a finger. If the society stopped paying unemployed people for being unemployed, and removing the minimum wages, the problems would be solved. Everyone would have to have a job - they would have to integrate into the society to get that - and thereby learning the language. The punishment for crimes should also be sharpened up a LOT, because then crime wouldn't be an opportunity of getting money to live for. The lawsystem in these countries are really for pussies.
Free language training are offered already and school and everything else is free, so you just need to do this to get the integration going Mach 15!
No more money to people who are unemployed: and sharpen up the lawsystem. That would solve the problems and I'm absolutely sure of it.

[ArosaMike]

That's sad I love Sweden....I spent part of my childhood there and it's such a friendly, easy going and peaceful country. It's a shame they're having such problems. I went back last year, and areas that were totally fine to go into and were just inhabited by Swedes are now no go areas full of gang wars.

[fleshbox]

A question for the muslims in this thread.

What about Mohammad (sp?) who taught when he was alive that islam should be spread through overthrowing people and killing those who do not believe? And what about islam being spread through this method for the greater part of the muslim history? If it is about peace, then why was the founder so fond of violence in the name of alla?


Please, don't take this wrong, I am asking out of curiosity.

[///M]

Crusades ring a bell, buddy?

Every majour religion today, except Buddhism (a trend here?) is spread by force.

[tranceshakeel]

Originally Posted by fleshbox

A question for the muslims in this thread.

What about Mohammad (sp?) who taught when he was alive that islam should be spread through overthrowing people and killing those who do not believe? And what about islam being spread through this method for the greater part of the muslim history? If it is about peace, then why was the founder so fond of violence in the name of alla?


Please, don't take this wrong, I am asking out of curiosity.

You are very ignorant, i mean if you dont know anything about islam and how it was spread then dont talk about it.

you have a misconception, cuz as long as Prophet Muhammad was alive there was no war without a reason, ie either in defence or because of a threat. also prophet mohammad also signed a landmark treaty with the jews, making them allies,this at that time was almost impossible.
You dont know anything about the character of our prophet, any true historian will tell you about how peaceful, honest and trustworthy he was !

Please dont use those types of words again because my belief of the prophet is as a very special and important person not any ordinary human being, and it hurts when you guys talk of our prophet and our beliefs as such, i mean as if killing us (muslims) and blaming us for every terrorist action wasn't enough

[justin syder]

tranceshakeel, you didnt know? Us religious guys believe in "fairy tales" according to the wise ///M.

[///M]

When did I ever make a claim that a prophet was a fairy tale?

I was merely referring to the many tales found in the Old Testament. The way I see it, they were intended to be taken as stories, with the morals behind them being the important aspect. Some people take them too literally (Adam and Eve) and try to equate that to science.

[justin syder]

Well maybe I misunderstood but I do believe you equated religion with fairy tales.

[///M]

Well, you'd find that I only used that comparison in the context of comparing religion to science. That's another issue. I never directly insulted a prophet, mocked a god, or rediculed anything sensitive that has to do with religion. Tranceshakeel was talking about the other guy insulting his faith. Don't bring me in to this.

The only time I'll critique a religion is when I talk about its followers and how it effects the world around it. I could care less what happens behind closed doors, but just keep it behind closed doors.

Now let's not ruin this discussion for the others .

[Jacobfox]

Amen, ///M. BTW, I agree with shakeel and DoLeep. I believe that the biggest danger of our modern era is fundementalism in any form. By this I mean fundamentalist madrassas, the Tamil tigers who are Fundamentalist hindus, the far-right wing ideals of Reverend Jerry Falwell and Bob Jones University (an evangelical college which is so radical that it can't be accredited and won't let students of different races date [What if you were Tiger Woods]) and even fundamentalist jews (my religion, culturally) such as those who killed Yitzhak Rabin. Fundamentalism plagues all religions and we must think twice before accepting any religious doctrine as our own.

[tranceshakeel]

Yes That is true, every religion has its problems and its no good to blame the roots of that religion.