The new EU constitution

[justin syder]

Should we adopt hardcore capitalism a la USA ? Sure, this might cause a few more homeless people but it's their fault in the first place, right ?

Your country will move forward!! Think about a space race to Mars. That benefits mankind. You can never stop homelessness, even in socialist countries. Im not sayng its all their fault but most of social problems come from mistakes and uneducated ppl. Of course its still not as clear black and white as that but you do have control over your own life, IMO.

[swek]

Sure, but you must keep in mind that that every country has to find it's own way. Our system is called social market economy and I surely wouldn't mind moving a little away from the everything providing wealthfare state, but we were raised with a different approach on social issues and I am certainly not willing to cut things like basic health care. Therefore we have to find a solution that provides the social assistance needed while still being able to be competitive.

Take a look at our neighbors. Some of the already did it. Things are just a little more difficult with Germany because we cant make changes to our legal system fast enough to cope with the market.

Germany was able to make up for higher taxes etc. because we are a highly innovative country. What really worries me is that we're complicating access to universities. Our university graduate rate is already small compared to other European country's

[jensked]

I would rather speak about free market economies that are corrected in a socialism-way: one of the core tasks of a government is to redistribute wealth: being a Robin Hood.

Although you always get the 'Mattheus-effect": "why Santa Claus only comes to rich children" or: rich people get richer.

And by the way, what was the topic again?

[Roland]

Should we adopt hardcore capitalism a la USA ?

Firstly I would not like any country to have the kind of economical system that the US has. The system has a lot of faults which need to be dealt with. The school system is a big issue which largely contributes to poverty in the US. Basically, if u are poor u are bound to get a bad education. This is beacause the money going to the schools are baised on the salaries of the citisens of each town. This means that in a town which has a lot of poor ppl the schools will automatically suck. And if u are poor u are bound to go to that school because if u want to go to another school in another town (no matter private or not) u have to pay, which u obviously can't if u are poor. (Correct me if i am wrong, but i beleive Bush wants to change this)

Then we have the health care insurances which are pretty strange. There are way to many regulations on them like that they have to include things like marriage counsoling, sex-change and some other things. U sould be able to have your health care insurance the way u want without having to pay extra for things u don't want.

[Renesis]

Originally Posted by justin syder

Your country will move forward!! Think about a space race to Mars. That benefits mankind. You can never stop homelessness, even in socialist countries. Im not sayng its all their fault but most of social problems come from mistakes and uneducated ppl. Of course its still not as clear black and white as that but you do have control over your own life, IMO.

Damn that's just so fucking ridiculous.

Let's stop helping people, let's spend our money to go on Mars, that will be REAAAAALY useful.

[Firecat]

A lot of the research from space-program related technologies have been spun-off into mainstream use. For instance...

http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html

Originally Posted by justin syder

but most of social problems come from mistakes and uneducated ppl. Of course its still not as clear black and white as that but you do have control over your own life, IMO.

We might want to start an entire thread on that subject lol.

[Raheel]

Originally Posted by swek

No, I hate it. I mean 13€ per month for healthcare and 400€ per year for my University. It's hell, hell I tell you.

I don't know much about this topic but, I know on thing which I am certain of. EU citizens get equal rights as the nationals of a certain country. lets look at the educational system first. the fees structure is the same for the UK residents and the EU residents. I am planning to do my engineering in UK, the fees for it is 1500 pounds per month....

On the Other hand, as I am a Pakistani national and am not an EU resident, I'll have to pay a bloody 10 000 pounds per year to study... I don't know what othes think but I find it a bit cruel to the non EU people.

Sorry I can't comment about the Capitalism issue. don't have enough knowledge on that.

[regnevah]

So the EU is having issues balancing the rights of states with that of the new supernation? Sounds vaguely familiar...

What specific issues are there? The ones I caught were tariffs and expansion of power.

...quite ambitious for a trade union, no?

[jensked]

The EU has not always had the intention to be just a trade union. It's much more than that...

In the 1950's, you acually had three 'EU''s: The economic European Economic Union, but also a political entity and a military entity. The political and military communities never really took off and where never ratified.

After the failure of the 50's, creating a political union was just 'not done', and for a long time, it was really out of the question. A thing like European unification is of course determined by the personalities of the main players. It's obvious Charles De Gaulle had personal conflicts with other European leaders.

Ater De Gaulles election defeat, there was more goodwill to create new fields for european unification.

So you see, talking about the EU as just a "trade union" is completely wrong. The Commission creates legislation about environment, safety, consumer rights, education, food-safety, and you can go on for hours.

Finally, I thing that without the new constitution, the EU will be paralysed by the unanimity rule and by non-decision-making. The world needs the EU as a weight against other powers. Vote YES

[mmap]

Personally I do not like the new constitution but don't really care either. We wont get a chance to vote as the goernment will decide on the matter for us. This is fine by me as the people that make up the government are elected representatives and as such have the right to decide on the matters on my behalf, if I have a problem with their decisions I will vote against them...

As far as school fees for people outside the EU, well why should you get the same treatment? education is largely funded by taxation and people from outside the Eu obviously do not pay their taxes here (as a rule, indivisual exceptioins are present). I do not pay anything for my educatioin here in Finland so even when I studied in the UK I didn't pay anything there either but the EU paid the fees for me. Great system if you ask me!

[Lederlieber]

I have always been for EU, but I don't have a clear opinion about the constitution. I think that it's good that our government decides on this thing, because the vast majority of people really doesn't know enough about the constitution. So in most countries the poll about it will only show how many people are for and against European Union, the results won't have much to do with the constitution itself. And that's not so nice.

[viilaaja@pt cruiser]

Originally Posted by swek

No, I hate it. I mean 13€ per month for healthcare and 400€ per year for my University. It's hell, hell I tell you.

Wtf, how can Justin delete a post that has been answered ? Anyway, here we go:

edit: no text

i love finnish education system and healthcar.
School is freee , better education then in many european nations.
Healthcare: you don't have to pay every year, just in that yera when you get sick and go to doctor, and its 22€, when you go to get some medical help.

[Lederlieber]

Yeas, Finland is an excellent welfare state. It's a privilege to live here.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by jensked

So you see, talking about the EU as just a "trade union" is completely wrong. The Commission creates legislation about environment, safety, consumer rights, education, food-safety, and you can go on for hours.

Here's were we differ in opinions. I want the EU only to be a trade union and nothning else. The EU as it looks today is fucked up and it will be worse if this constitution goes trough. As of today the EU is funding tobacco plantations while they want to forbid traditional swedish salmiac pipes (candy for kids which resebles tobacco pipes), how on earth can u justify that? Then we have the issue of EU regulating how much non european movies we can watch. They seriously want to regulate by law that a certain percentage of all the movies shown on tv are european. Name one, JUST ONE, good reason why EU should do that kind of things.

Then i would just say i think it is pretty damn sick to regulate agricultural policies in a constitution, dont u think?

[haz]

*cough,gladwe'renotmembersofEUcough*



haz

[Firecat]

I've only had positive experiences with the canadian healthcare system, but then again..i've never really had any major health problems. Just went for check-ups etc...

As far as education goes. Well, i've been to all kind of schools in different countries. I never limited myself to the potential of the school.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by viilaaja@pt cruiser

edit: no text

i love finnish education system and healthcar.
School is freee , better education then in many european nations.
Healthcare: you don't have to pay every year, just in that yera when you get sick and go to doctor, and its 22€, when you go to get some medical help.

NOW IM REALLY CONFUSED, since when did anything become free????????????????

What u call free is actually paid by theft since tax is an invasion of the right to own, so think again before u say anything is free...

[mmap]

Originally Posted by Roland

They seriously want to regulate by law that a certain percentage of all the movies shown on tv are european. Name one, JUST ONE, good reason why EU should do that kind of things.

France?? They have had similar regulations in place for decades and thanks to them they have their own solid culture. The French movie and music scene is really strong instead of the americanilised shit we get everywhere else...

As for educatioin not being free in here, well techinically you are right of course. I pay A LOT of taxes to fund the system. But I am still having a very comfortable life style + I believe in the system so I am happy to pay. And if it really bothered me I could have finished my education and gone to work/live abroad somewhere, having had my education for free, since I had not paid any taxes.

There's also the issue that my taxes also pay for the healtcare/infrastructure/welfare/future pension so I feel I am better of paying them.

[viilaaja@pt cruiser]

Originally Posted by Roland

NOW IM REALLY CONFUSED, since when did anything become free????????????????

What u call free is actually paid by theft since tax is an invasion of the right to own, so think again before u say anything is free...

I ain't paying any taxes, because i have no income

[Lederlieber]

High taxation is good. That way everyone who pays his taxes can afford all these services. IMO it's the only way to create a welfare state.