Today: one year since USA gave back power to Iraq

[haz]

Please submit your thoughts here, on how you think the situation has become. Worse or better?

I heard some US war veterans think the situation is becoming Vietnam all over again ... and US citizens seem to turn their backs on Bush. I think US soldiers killed in Iraq is ca. 1700 now?

haz

[jayjaya29]

I think its not turning into a Vietnam, but its own situation. I think that the situations has gotten better despite the increased amount of suicide bombing. We will be there for a very long time, no doubt. A lot more lives will be lost there, no doubt. I really don't want to get into an arguement about Bush and the war, as this is not the subject of this thread.

[ESPNSTI]

I had always envisioned that there would have been a lot more deaths just to conquer Baghdad then the total is now.
I figured the US death toll for taking Baghdad would have been around 2000-3000 or so.
I also figured the US would be there at LEAST 5 years before they could diminish troops significantly.

From a military point of view (which is rather cold and morbid), I don't think that the insurgents have inflicted significant damage.
However the public opinion is damaging.
As far as that is concerned, I'm somewhat disappointed by the resolve of some of the US population.

Having said that, I think only 13% favor an immediate withdrawal, and I do think that leaving too soon would be enormously costly.

[zenkidori]

Vietnam 2.0:
Iraq!
Now with sand!!!

It would be too costly to leave right now, but it's not like we should have been there in the first place. It never was our fight, niether was the first Gulf War, especially after we told Sadaam, "we don't really care if you invade kuwait". We waste far too much time and money on shitty countries halfway around the world.

Why should the US have "resolve" and back Bush for this crap? We were outright lied to prior to going to war and most of us could seriously give two shits about some sandtrap across the globe. I'm glad not many people are blaming the soldiers and attacking them like in Vietnam tho, that's never a good idea. I have quite a few military buddies, in addition to half my family having served various branches, it's not like it's thier fault. Some people think they're horrible for going over and fighting, but what choice do they have? If I were drafted(not going to happen, but anyway) I would go fight.

[justin syder]

Put it to you like this.

Better to fight them in Iraq than to procrastinate, lie to ourselves about terrorism and then be surprised when we would have to fight them here, by then it would be too late.

Yes public opinion is a bitch. Most ppl dont really know whats going on and when you have our own senators and media undermining the war it makes for a hard time.

Ppl forget that before 9-11 our embassies were bombed by Bin Laden in Africa and other places, remember the USS Cole?

Ppl forget that there was a "small" attack on the WTC in 1993.

Ppl need to stop forgetting and remeber...they need to forget that they are comfortable now and remember that 9-11 seemed to happen so long ago...but it did happen and shouldnt ever happen again.

[zenkidori]

A: We wouldn't need to fight Iraq over here, they were never coming, never had the capability nor the resolve, and as it turns out, weren't backing Al-Quaida or Emmanuel, erm, Osama Bin Laden.

B: Again, Bin Laden was not in Iraq. So it's like your neighbor's dog shitting on your lawn, then you going down the block and killing someone's cats.

C: 9/11 had NOTHING AT FUCKING ALL TO DO WITH IRAQ

D: Terrorism is bad. We should find Osama and kill him(but of course we fucked that one up in Afganistan), but again, the current military action has nothing to do with that, except that they are Arabs and live in a shitty sandbox country as well.

E: The Yellow Cake documents Bush was waving around in people's faces while screaming invade were fake, and he knew them to be prior to waving them around. the CIA told him, the DOE told him. Then he switched to WMD, then those weren't there either. Then he switched to terrorism, well turns out he wasn't really helping anyone with that one either. Then he finally settles on spreading democracy and "liberating" the poor poor people of Iraq. WHO GIVE A SHIT ABOUT STUPID IRAQIS WHEN OUR OWN COUNTRY IS CRAPPINGOUT?!?!?!

[jayjaya29]

Zen's post = truth.

[mmap]

First of all .. I hate political discussion in this forum, I seem to end up taking part no matter how much I don't wanna.

Being the target of terrorist attack does not entitle anyone to taking over several countires... Spain, UK, France have been suffering from terrorists for decades and so far they've not occupied anyone. Why? They know nothing good could be accomplished... They do not perceive themselves as almighty lords of civilatisation entitled to do everything and anything in their righteous "holy" quest for "freeing" people.

But on the actual topic... I must agree with ESPNSTI the total death toll is surprisingly small considering the task. And I think that bush is doing the right thing with staying in there no way could the troops leave now (although his reasons for staying might not be those he claims...)

[///M]

America fucked it up in '91 when they didn't go all the way and kill Saddam.

Atleast they went back and got the job done.

The same can't be said for the former colonists of Europe. I wan't the British and the French to grow some balls and come fix the mess in Africa.

I lived in the area in '91 when the first Gulf War happened. Back then, Americans were heroes. Now everyone hates them?

[tranceshakeel]

Originally Posted by ///M

America fucked it up in '91 when they didn't go all the way and kill Saddam.

Atleast they went back and got the job done.

The same can't be said for the former colonists of Europe. I wan't the British and the French to grow some balls and come fix the mess in Africa.

I lived in the area in '91 when the first Gulf War happened. Back then, Americans were heroes. Now everyone hates them?

You are wrong there dude, OK the Europeans colonised Africa, but actually they even did industrialise it, Its different cuz the US only goes to kill not do any good. If the europeans went back they'd be fixing stuff not killing innocent people claiming they are terrorists, which is easy to do unlike fixing the whole economic and industrial sector of a country not fucking it up, like USA does, and then just leaves it to rot (Like Afghanistan)

America fucked it up in '91 when they didn't go all the way and kill Saddam.

Well they didn't need to finish as they had given sadaam the weapons and were using him against Iran.

[///M]

Tell that to the families of the Kurds that were gassed after the Gulf War.

All the corruption that's in Africa right now can be linked back to colonisation. All the Europeans did was come in, steal, and leave countries in shambles. I don't see any industry because of the Europeans in my country. Get out of here with that noise. All the British and the French did in my country was pump money into the corrupt ruling class, build the Suez Canal for their own benefit, have the nerve to invade us after we took it over, and stopped the Zaghloul revolution that could have made Egypt the first democratic nation in the Middle East. Instead, we had to wait for the army to force the ruling class out, and we're still under unofficial military rule today. What the British and the French did in Egypt is NOTHING compared to what they did in the rest of Africa.

You make the bold claim that the US is only there to kill. I'm assuming you're willing to say that Iraq is worse off now than it was before the war?

[tranceshakeel]

You make the bold claim that the US is only there to kill. I'm assuming you're willing to say that Iraq is worse off now than it was before the war?

Yup thats exactly what I mean !!

Hey by the way didnt know you were egyptian, Im a muslim but i take it that you are a no religion guy (from the evolution thread).
Cmon man we dont need to argue these things, I mean if we could change the world then it would mean something but hell the British even Sucked everything out Pakistan & India, but what can be done now I mean heck they even have the nerve to display the Kohinoor Diamond on their Royal exhibition thingies, which belongs to either india or Pakistan as it was a mughal empires artifact.

Alas we should work to make ourselves better & pious instead of trying to change others, If everyone thinks this way then we can certainly change the way others think !!

[///M]

All I'm saying is America is going back and fixing their mistakes. Europeans generally form the majority of the opposition towards the Iraqi war, that's why I'm criticising European nations. Justin has probably beaten this topic to death before, so there's no point arguing whether the war should have happened or not.

How is Iraq worse off now? You seriously think the Shiites and the Kurds are worse off now than they were under Saddam? Every Iraqi person I know celebrated the day Saddam's statue came down in Baghdad. War is not a pretty thing, and maybe the US had alterior motives in this whole thing. I could care less if they lied as an excuse, the simpe fact is Iraq is better off now than before. You have to be seriously messed up if you think otherwise.

People outside of America have no right what so ever to criticise this war. Iraq is better off now and the American army has taken that country on its shoulders. I was fiercly opposed to this war from the get go, but after seeing the Iraqi government take shape and the masses that came out to vote, I think it can be said that Iraq has a better future now.

I do understand Americans that are against this war, though. It's their country's troops and it's understandable that they don't want them fighting for a cause they don't believe in.

[jayjaya29]

Look, I wholeheartedly support the troops fighting in Iraq and elsewhere 100%. But I think that we were outright lied to about going to war with Iraq. WMD have not been found and that was the main advertisement for going to war in Iraq. Support the troops, not the Bushies.

[tranceshakeel]

You seriously think the Shiites and the Kurds are worse off now

I am a Shia and I feel for them, but only NOW as Shia Mosques are being bombed NOW, shiites are the main target of those bombers NOW.
It wasnt anything like this before. I just wish you could experience what they do, maybe you'd have different thoughts

You have to be seriously messed up if you think otherwise.

You are right from yoor perspective because for you thinking right is messed up, its really hard to keep calm in situations like these i mean if i was an iraqi i dont know what i'd do.

Another thing, Howcome wheneven you hear the word terrorist its always followed by a muslim name, just because they are tired of being brutalised and opressed. Howcome serial killers with english names are not terrorists ????

[///M]

Let's not get off topic here. This issue has nothing to do with terrorists.

Funny you mentioned the Shiites, since they're the ones enjoying the new Iraqi democracy the most. Just look at the voter turnout of the elections.

Again, war is not pretty, but life under Saddam was much uglier. Aslong as America sticks to their plans, which they have so far (transfer of power, elections, etc.), I think everyone will look back at this campaign as a success.

[tranceshakeel]

Funny you mentioned the Shiites

You are dumb

You seriously think the Shiites and the Kurds are worse off now

Enjoying ?????
I hope you get a lot of such enjoyment

Im outta here !!!!

[///M]

Eh?

The fuck is your post supposed to mean.

You said the Shiite majority is worse off now.

I said it's funny you should bring that up, because the voter turn-out seems to indicate the opposite. That shouldn't really be surprising, after what Saddam did to them.

[tranceshakeel]

Originally Posted by ///M

Eh?

Funny you mentioned the Shiites

I metioned them, You are dumb

You seriously think the Shiites and the Kurds are worse off now

Enjoying ?????
I hope you get a lot of such enjoyment

Im outta here !!!!

[///M]

You're the one that's so blind with hate for America. Hey, I hate Bush and his neo-cons as much as the next person, but I'm not going to be against this war because so far, it's been a success.

Under Saddam, the Shiite MAJORITY couldn't do much. They had no representation, and it was pretty hard to go through day to day life.

Now, they control the government, rightfully so I say.

If you wouldn't ENJOY voting in a democratic election after years of opression and torment, something is seriously wrong with you.