What is punishment?

jetsetter · January 20th, 2007, 4:52 PM

Quote:

However, Norwegian lawyers as well as the Council of Europe's Committee Against Torture have expressed their concern about long-term detention of criminal defendants and the use of solitary confinement in Norway, deeming it torture.

http://www.aftenposten.no/meninger/k...cle1274357.ece

Quote:

Also deemed as torture was the use of leg irons and handcuffs on a group of robbers who, armed with AG3s, shot and killed a police officer in 2004

http://wap.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2005/12/01/450960.html

Your opinions? They can't be put into handcuffs and leg irons and they can't be put into prison for longer periods. What should be done? In my opinion there is a whole lot of bullshit going on. There is a point in which you just become too soft. It is called punishment for a reason.

Momentum57 · January 20th, 2007, 4:57 PM

I was in shackles for my brush with the law, and the reason why they put handcuffs and leg shackles is so that you don't run away. Again violent crimes like armed robbery should be considered much more serious. You know those dog collars that shock the dog from barking or leaving a underground fence, im sure that prisons could get those on the cheep, and according to ASPCA they are not torture.

Firecat · January 20th, 2007, 7:13 PM

Wow. For once i'm speechless....well, not so much.

They'll kill again, and put back in. In fact, if they make it too comfortable....people will kill just to get in.

Blind_Io · January 20th, 2007, 7:23 PM

Ok, first of all we need to distinguish between punishment and restraint. Restraints (chemical or physical) are used for the protection of the subject, the officers or other personnel (including other inmates). Punishment is used for behavior modification and sometimes restraints or isolation is used for this reason.

The point is that not all use of restraints is punishment, it only becomes punishment when the motivation is to modify the subject's behavior. If the purpose is to cause harm then it constitutes abuse.

These people seem to think that murderers and rapists need a hug and a teddy bear. Offenders can be violent and the police, prison guards and bailiffs have a duty to protect the public at large, but also other people in the system as well as themselves. If these offenders were not dangerous they would not be in prison. Restraints are frequently necessary to accomplish this.

nomix · January 20th, 2007, 10:58 PM

The question is, if the government has the right to use temporary confinement for long time. Temporarty confinement means there is not enought evidence for conviction, of course, there is situations where it might be nessesary for instance, to secure evidence, and to avoid escape. But the use of it as a principle, is wrong. Imprisonment should be used with great causion. It might very well be a cause of psycological trouble. Not to forget that the use of imprisonment without evidence is questionable from a juridical and moral viewpoint.

As for leg irons, the use is not common in Norway. The use of handcuffes is common, during arrests and so on. But the use in question, is use during trial. In this respect, it is unessecary, and I quite agree with the accused in question's attournies, that it was used as a tactic by the prosecutor and the police, to make them look like "bad guys" and "dangerous". It's like when some security police forces get media to film the arrest of "terrorist", being dragged kicking and screaming out of their homes, partially naked in the middle of the night - most would be kicking and screaming in that context.

And, as a plus, everyone will think that they're bad guys. Why else would there be used a SWAT team and why were there no time to cloth them, if they aren't VERY dangerous?

It's tactic. Clever tactic, but not needed.

In the question, what is punishment, the answer in my mind is firstly, to detere, secondly to punish, in some cases the most important part is that dangerous people be kept from causing demage, and in no way, should punishment be revenge. That goes against the whole principle of justice.

jetsetter · January 20th, 2007, 11:13 PM

Quote:

It's tactic. Clever tactic, but not needed.

Actually it is. I have seen quite a few videos of criminals in court getting angry and getting up from their seat.

nomix · January 21st, 2007, 12:31 AM

Yes, but you have court officers that should be able to put the subject back down into his or hers seat.

And I don't think the exception should be percieved as the norm, do you?

jetsetter · January 21st, 2007, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomix

And I don't think the exception should be percieved as the norm, do you?

Depends on the situation and in this case violence is involved so yes, these exceptions should be percieved as the norm.

Cobol74 · January 21st, 2007, 12:46 AM

Shout in a British Court get 6 months for contempt of Court - stops it dead.

Momentum57 · January 21st, 2007, 2:23 AM

If im sitting for murder that i committed and i believe that i will not be found not guility why would 6 months added on to a life sentence threaten me. I could easily jump up grab a pen and stab the bailiff or judge. Bailiffs have had their guns used on them and lawyers that are representing accused have been choked to death by their clients. Besides in the UK isn't there a special box built around the accused.

nomix · January 21st, 2007, 3:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetsetter

Depends on the situation and in this case violence is involved so yes, these exceptions should be percieved as the norm.

Well, people using knives to kill other people is the exception. Should we abolish knives? Guns? Cars? Pens? Bottles? Frosen pieces of meat?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momentum57

If im sitting for murder that i committed and i believe that i will not be found not guility why would 6 months added on to a life sentence threaten me. I could easily jump up grab a pen and stab the bailiff or judge. Bailiffs have had their guns used on them and lawyers that are representing accused have been choked to death by their clients. Besides in the UK isn't there a special box built around the accused.

Well, killing someone with a pen is possible even with your hands chained. As for accused grabbing the gun, that seems to me a display of incompetance from the officers side, in about 90% of cases.

Chaining people during trials are wrong. They aren't convicted yet, it is inhumane, it's stigmatic, and it could well provoke the criminal. There are court officers, they are trained to control people, if need be, with violence. They will use these skills to subdue people who act out. They won't do it to those who remain quiet and calm. But since they might be violent, maybe the best would be to beat them up, then put them in a glass cage strapped to a chair with a blindfold and a gag.
/rant

jetsetter · January 21st, 2007, 3:30 AM

Quote:

Chaining people during trials are wrong. They aren't convicted yet, it is inhumane, it's stigmatic, and it could well provoke the criminal. There are court officers, they are trained to control people, if need be, with violence.

The problem is that people have been hurt by criminals who were not chained.

nomix · January 21st, 2007, 4:00 AM

People have been hurt by accountants with guns. And fishermen with knives. As long as we maintain a democracy, we need to uphold respect and dignity. Chaining someone who is only accused is undignified. So is putting them into orange oweralls. It sends one message: I'm guilty. Put me in jail.

jetsetter · January 21st, 2007, 4:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomix

People have been hurt by accountants with guns. And fishermen with knives. As long as we maintain a democracy, we need to uphold respect and dignity. Chaining someone who is only accused is undignified. So is putting them into orange oweralls. It sends one message: I'm guilty. Put me in jail.

So, would you like to be the one who is hurt in the court room?

cvrefugee · January 21st, 2007, 8:09 AM

Is Norway like Finland but with less drunkards?

/i keed i keed!

nomix · January 21st, 2007, 2:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetsetter

So, would you like to be the one who is hurt in the court room?

Would you like to be hurt by the accountant? There's nutters in all situations. Let the court officer take care of the damned guy if he does anything. It isn't a problem in Norway, not in Britain afaik, so why does it need to be a problem in the US?

Let's turn it, would you like to get chained in court for something trivial? Further, you can chain guys who's violent, you probably see that during detention anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cvg

Is Norway like Finland but with less drunkards?

/i keed i keed!

Nah. Finland has history for more military plots. Home Guard people getting drunk, going to the union club house, surrounding it, then going to the "NRA"-house to drink more moonshine. (Happened several times during the 30s)

Well.. We're not that different, allthough the languages aren't too similar, but two countries so close to each other MUST share some culture.

Peter3hg · January 21st, 2007, 8:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momentum57

If im sitting for murder that i committed and i believe that i will not be found not guility why would 6 months added on to a life sentence threaten me.

Because in Britain the mandatory life sentence is 25 years. However the judge will usually only recommend for you to serve about 15 for a typical murder. If however you start attacking people in the courtroom thats you for the full 25 years. It is a BIG deterrent.

Quote:

I could easily jump up grab a pen and stab the bailiff or judge. Bailiffs have had their guns used on them and lawyers that are representing accused have been choked to death by their clients. Besides in the UK isn't there a special box built around the accused.

There isn't usually a special box.
As for the Bailiffs hows this for an idea? Don't give the Bailiffs guns then there's no chance of someone using their gun on them. We have no problem in the UK and the Bailiffs have little more than a baton and proper training.

Momentum57 · January 21st, 2007, 8:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter3hg

Because in Britain the mandatory life sentence is 25 years. However the judge will usually only recommend for you to serve about 15 for a typical murder. If however you start attacking people in the courtroom thats you for the full 25 years. It is a BIG deterrent.

Pulls mini recorder from pocket -- "Note to self kill victims in UK"
Thank you Norm MacDonald for that bit

nomix · January 21st, 2007, 10:01 PM

Yes, 15 years confinement seems like a walk in the park.

Remind me to steal two times in Cali. Would be a bitch getting life.

Firecat · January 22nd, 2007, 7:56 AM

Thought this may be an appropriate place to post this, rather than starting a new thread....

Canada's largest murder trial to start
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070121/...erial_killer_3

Quote:

Robert William Pickton is charged with the deaths of 26 women, mostly prostitutes and drug addicts who vanished from Vancouver's impoverished Downtown Eastside neighborhood in the 1990s.

Quote:

He is accused of luring women to his family's 17-acre pig farm outside Vancouver, where investigators say he threw drunken raves with prostitutes and plenty of drugs. After his arrest in February 2002, health officials issued a tainted meat advisory to neighbors who may have bought pork from his farm, concerned that it may have contained human remains.

If guilty, anything short of life in prison (Without parole) would be tragic.

January 20th, 2007, 4:57 PM	#2
Momentum57 worships the 2010 Prius like a god Joined: Aug 26th, 2005 Last Online: Yesterday Location: Manlius Outside of Syracuse Age: 25 Posts: 1,405 Car: Jaguar X-Type 3.0 Rep Power: 29	I was in shackles for my brush with the law, and the reason why they put handcuffs and leg shackles is so that you don't run away. Again violent crimes like armed robbery should be considered much more serious. You know those dog collars that shock the dog from barking or leaving a underground fence, im sure that prisons could get those on the cheep, and according to ASPCA they are not torture. __________________

January 20th, 2007, 7:13 PM	#3
Firecat Politically Charged Joined: Mar 23rd, 2005 Last Online: Yesterday Posts: 4,448 Rep Power: 48	Wow. For once i'm speechless....well, not so much. They'll kill again, and put back in. In fact, if they make it too comfortable....people will kill just to get in. __________________

January 20th, 2007, 7:23 PM	#4
Blind_Io Dispenses buckshot medication for all undead patients. Joined: Apr 5th, 2006 Last Online: Yesterday Location: Utah, USA Age: 28 Posts: 10,993 Car: 2006 Nissan X-Terra - 2000 VFR800 Interceptor Rep Power: 266	Ok, first of all we need to distinguish between punishment and restraint. Restraints (chemical or physical) are used for the protection of the subject, the officers or other personnel (including other inmates). Punishment is used for behavior modification and sometimes restraints or isolation is used for this reason. The point is that not all use of restraints is punishment, it only becomes punishment when the motivation is to modify the subject's behavior. If the purpose is to cause harm then it constitutes abuse. These people seem to think that murderers and rapists need a hug and a teddy bear. Offenders can be violent and the police, prison guards and bailiffs have a duty to protect the public at large, but also other people in the system as well as themselves. If these offenders were not dangerous they would not be in prison. Restraints are frequently necessary to accomplish this. __________________ War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

January 20th, 2007, 10:58 PM	#5
nomix True Viking Joined: May 26th, 2005 Last Online: 12:54 AM Location: Norway Posts: 4,096 Rep Power: 65	The question is, if the government has the right to use temporary confinement for long time. Temporarty confinement means there is not enought evidence for conviction, of course, there is situations where it might be nessesary for instance, to secure evidence, and to avoid escape. But the use of it as a principle, is wrong. Imprisonment should be used with great causion. It might very well be a cause of psycological trouble. Not to forget that the use of imprisonment without evidence is questionable from a juridical and moral viewpoint. As for leg irons, the use is not common in Norway. The use of handcuffes is common, during arrests and so on. But the use in question, is use during trial. In this respect, it is unessecary, and I quite agree with the accused in question's attournies, that it was used as a tactic by the prosecutor and the police, to make them look like "bad guys" and "dangerous". It's like when some security police forces get media to film the arrest of "terrorist", being dragged kicking and screaming out of their homes, partially naked in the middle of the night - most would be kicking and screaming in that context. And, as a plus, everyone will think that they're bad guys. Why else would there be used a SWAT team and why were there no time to cloth them, if they aren't VERY dangerous? It's tactic. Clever tactic, but not needed. In the question, what is punishment, the answer in my mind is firstly, to detere, secondly to punish, in some cases the most important part is that dangerous people be kept from causing demage, and in no way, should punishment be revenge. That goes against the whole principle of justice. __________________ "If you're not getting the picture you want, you're not close enough" - Robert Capa "Your first 14000 pictures are your worst" - HCB - David Bailey! Who's he?!

January 21st, 2007, 12:31 AM	#7
nomix True Viking Joined: May 26th, 2005 Last Online: 12:54 AM Location: Norway Posts: 4,096 Rep Power: 65	Yes, but you have court officers that should be able to put the subject back down into his or hers seat. And I don't think the exception should be percieved as the norm, do you? __________________ "If you're not getting the picture you want, you're not close enough" - Robert Capa "Your first 14000 pictures are your worst" - HCB - David Bailey! Who's he?!

January 21st, 2007, 12:46 AM	#9
Cobol74 Joined: Mar 21st, 2006 Last Online: 12:18 AM Location: Southampton Posts: 8,592 Car: Vauxhall Zafira 1.9 TDI Slush box. Rep Power: 126	Shout in a British Court get 6 months for contempt of Court - stops it dead. __________________ Lotus 7 Registration Mark = KAR120C : Engine Number = 461034 TZ Ross Brawn genius or what?

January 21st, 2007, 2:23 AM	#10
Momentum57 worships the 2010 Prius like a god Joined: Aug 26th, 2005 Last Online: Yesterday Location: Manlius Outside of Syracuse Age: 25 Posts: 1,405 Car: Jaguar X-Type 3.0 Rep Power: 29	If im sitting for murder that i committed and i believe that i will not be found not guility why would 6 months added on to a life sentence threaten me. I could easily jump up grab a pen and stab the bailiff or judge. Bailiffs have had their guns used on them and lawyers that are representing accused have been choked to death by their clients. Besides in the UK isn't there a special box built around the accused. __________________

January 21st, 2007, 4:00 AM	#13
nomix True Viking Joined: May 26th, 2005 Last Online: 12:54 AM Location: Norway Posts: 4,096 Rep Power: 65	People have been hurt by accountants with guns. And fishermen with knives. As long as we maintain a democracy, we need to uphold respect and dignity. Chaining someone who is only accused is undignified. So is putting them into orange oweralls. It sends one message: I'm guilty. Put me in jail. __________________ "If you're not getting the picture you want, you're not close enough" - Robert Capa "Your first 14000 pictures are your worst" - HCB - David Bailey! Who's he?!

January 21st, 2007, 8:09 AM	#15
cvrefugee Joined: Aug 16th, 2004 Last Online: Yesterday Location: Corona, CA Age: 29 Posts: 3,761 Car: 2005 Scion xB Rep Power: 86	Is Norway like Finland but with less drunkards? /i keed i keed!

January 21st, 2007, 10:01 PM	#19
nomix True Viking Joined: May 26th, 2005 Last Online: 12:54 AM Location: Norway Posts: 4,096 Rep Power: 65	Yes, 15 years confinement seems like a walk in the park. Remind me to steal two times in Cali. Would be a bitch getting life. __________________ "If you're not getting the picture you want, you're not close enough" - Robert Capa "Your first 14000 pictures are your worst" - HCB - David Bailey! Who's he?!

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Welcome to the FinalGear.com Forums!