Why i don't think "gay" is something your born with

[Ottobon]

First of all i'd like to state that i have nothing against homosexuals, and that in general i'm pretty left on the issue. My biggest grief is that when somebody comes along as says its "immoral" the common response is that, "why would god make me this way if he hates gays." Now i don't want to get into any bible arguements, that is NOT what this thread is about. My first problem is that although i don't think sexual orientation is a choice in the same way choosing your lunch is, i do believe its a learned response, heres a article that helps explains why i hold this opinion.

http://www.thewavemag.com/pagegen.ph...gename=article

Fetish Confessions
Telling loved ones about your fetish is as easy as solving fractured quadratic equations.
Sandy Brundage

When it comes to what turns us on, society draws lines between ok and not ok. Some of the lines make sense, others don't. Why it's acceptable to lust after a woman wrapped in a lung-cramping corset and stiletto heels, but not a woman decked out in diapers (yes, woman; yes, diapers) doesn't really make sense. Part of the problem is that the first group knows where its ideas of sexy come from – the media. The second group doesn't understand why they find diapers sexy any more than anyone else.

Here's their best guess: Fetishists mostly point fingers at their ‘childhood.' Actually, it's straightforward - something that scares you as a child, like a balloon popping or someone coughing, becomes erotically charged when puberty hits. It's like your brain's way of processing fear. It makes sense when you think of how people get scared and turned-on at the same time, like at a horror movie.

But regardless of the whys and wherefores of a fetish, there's still the problem (and joy) of living with it. Do you fess up about what you like to do behind closed doors? Maybe you don't. People turned on by everything from balloons to amputations told us what they chose.

Looners
There's a contagious romper room appeal to the idea of balloons as sexy. All those bright colors and deep breaths, squeaky latex skin and the shivers of wondering when it'll pop. But when you crave balloons, it raises the inevitable question: Why?

"I'm not sure I have the answer to that," Mike D., longtime looner, said. "There's always something that goes back to your childhood. Like your babysitter blew up a balloon or your mother popped your balloon. Then along comes puberty and these things that made such an impression on you as a child turn into something erotic." When I admitted that I still cringe whenever a balloon pops, Mike laughed. "I'm sorry. I'm still phobic myself. That's where my whole fetish derived from, that fear." But even the looners are divided on the issue of ‘to pop or not to pop.' "And they can be religious about it. You know, ‘Better not pop my balloon!'" he said.

Mike's part-time job is running Mellyloon (www.mellyloon.com), a company that produces balloon videos. "I invited a supervisor from my full-time job to a photo shoot once, where we have pretty girls blowing up balloons until they pop. And he said, ‘You know, I was watching the girls' chests heave up and down and I was kinda getting into it.'" The balloon fetish is more popular than you'd think; in three years Mellyloon has shipped over 1,000 orders to the Middle East, Asia, South and North America. "Ita dream job," he said. "It's not going to make me rich but certainly enables me to discuss our fetish openly." Mellyloon balloons are bigger than normal, judging by how far the girls have to stretch their arms out to hold them. "Bigger is better in this case," he confirmed.

Mike and his girlfriend have been together several years. "She's very understanding and accommodating," he said. "It's such an innocent thing that if someone's disgusted or turned off by it, there are deeper issues there. My coworkers know about my website and think it's funny." Part of his forthrightness comes from a support group of looners that have been together since the ‘70s; Mike has drawn courage from their website for six or seven years.

So, how do you let loose that balloons are necessary to your sex life? "How do you bring up any subject?" Mike said. "Ask your partner, is there anything unusual you want to try? Nine out of 10 times there is, and then they ask you, you say well, yes! And they get this curious look on their face, like, hey what's that balloon for?"

Balloons, in a jellybean giggling way, are fun, and it's not hard to see where the sexual appeal of huffing and puffing comes in. But what if your fantasies are darker in nature, say, you're aroused at the thought of a long slippery snake swallowing your lover whole (Freudian symbolism aside)?

You Look Tasty
Once you understand vore, you'll never hear ‘big gulp' the same way at the fast food drive-thru again. Vore (probably from ‘carnivore') means getting off on the idea of a person being swallowed alive. Cannibals not included. Imagining digestion at the very end may come into play, but it's painless in the vore niche. And since most sexual partners aren't going to let your pet python gulp their ankles, a vore fantasty is just that – fantasy. Art, National Geographic specials and fan fiction feed the fire.

Fantasy also comes in handy when introducing the idea to a newcomer. "One approach I use is describing a classic AD&D [Advanced Dungeons & Dragons] scene: The heroes have to rescue a pretty damsel from a dragon or other monster. Now, we all know what happens when the heroes win, but what if they lose?" said Angel, who remembers being fascinated by carnivorous plants as a kid. Excitement ensues.

"I showed some of my pictures and stories to my first, and so far only, love interest practically on the day we first dated. The first reaction was a bit of a shock. However, when I explained it a bit more, she claimed to accept it. But, although it was never spoken out, I do feel it played a role in her deciding to break up with me a year ago."

Like most of the other people interviewed, Angel's coworkers know about his taste for vore. "Most of my co-workers were indifferent," he said. "They took a glance and then went back to my non-vore picture collection. One admitted [vore] had some erotic attraction, and another began asking questions about why I was so interested in it."

"I'm not actively hiding it, although I'm not really advertising it either."

Other fetishes don't take as much imaginary work to enjoy. Some are even enjoyed right under your nose. Like coughing.

Coughing Your Way to Love
Yes, hacking your lungs out can be sexy (effectively destroying years of anti-smoking campaigns that assured you that no one would ever want to kiss a girl with smoker's cough.) Nabucco Zach, cough and smoking fetishist, said, "My own theory is that it has something to do with my aunt who died of lung cancer when I was four. There was a lot of talking about her lungs around me, and I probably understood that something serious was happening to her because of her lungs, so to speak. So, I think it's a sort of fear that the coughing or smoking woman would pass away, that the brain handles by turning the fear into a sexual activity. Just a theory, and maybe a psychologist would laugh."

So far, only a stripper and some internet buddies know of Zach's fetish. "The cough fascination is something that turns me on, sexually - it's a part of my sexual life and sex is not the first thing I start talking about when meeting a person," he said. "I'm not sure if I would ever reveal it." He was sure no one else shared his passion until tripping over a fetish messageboard on the internet, where secrets, stories and recordings of coughs are traded. "I've only gotten compliments [on my choice of fetish], usually from people who share it. Did you know girls have it as well, by the way?" Fewer women develop fetishes than men, and it's a rare woman indeed who has a looner fetish. But other types share a more equal gender split, like infantilism, a.k.a. adult baby play, a.k.a. adults who like to wear diapers and act like babies, and those who like to babysit. And then there's Little Girls.

Thank Heavens
Daisy (or Danielle, when she's dressed as a grown-up) doesn't get into the diapers. A transvestite, she likes being a Little Girl, and "playing with the female things I never could as a young boy. The satin, frilly dresses and petticoats. The pretty wigs. Finding out what it was like being a child in the clothes of past generations. The structured life of being treated as a young girl. Just being YOUNG again," she said.

"It's not reflected in my everyday life, except for rare wearings at home. All such activities are [away from home] as the wife, while happy to take Daisy's photo, does not want anything else to do with it. I have heard of wives who do like their hubbies as children - but I am sure this is a literary convention, so seldom a reality," Danielle said. "I never tell anyone about being a transvestite unless asked; then I'm completely open. I point out that all transvestites look younger than their real years with the wonders of modern makeup, and I just go back a bit younger than most!"

According to Danielle, there are more transvestite stories written about being Little Girls than any other topic. But the transvestite community is, when it comes to playing in real life, divided. Some clubs are totally against it; others stock cots, high chairs and dresses. There's something inherent to the human personality that still needs to single out those who are too different, never mind what you have in common. Sometimes, as in the case of amputees, that comes as a blessing.

Less Is More
Alex runs Ampulove.com, a website for amputees and two sorts of groupies – wannabes, who need a limb amputated in order to feel whole, and devotees, who want relationships with amputees. The site pulls over 2,000 visitors daily. "A lot of amputees don't know about devotees, but there are two groups. One searches for an amputated live partner, for marriage, for love, and even will leave the relationship they're in at the moment if they find an amputee tomorrow," he said. "The other group is only interested in sex with a ‘cripple'; they are not interested in a relationship but only dream about stump touching, and having bedfun with a stump." The most popular amputations for devotees are one leg, above the knee.

Alex lost a leg above the knee accidentally, but after talking with a man who had shot his leg off on purpose, he started the website. Many visitors buy photos or other products and request anonymous mailing, because their spouses know nothing about their interests. "Only a few people ever tell their partners," he said. "One wannabe told his wife a few years ago he wanted to lose a leg, and her answer was a divorce. He told his doctor, and the answer was a trip to the local psychiatric clinic. But after fighting, traveling, searching and finally, self amputation, he became one-legged." Like other fetishes, the urge won't just go away because other people cringe.

"The question is, what's better, being a wannabe, wanting your legs off, finding a man without legs or a wife on one leg very sexy and attractive, or being a pedophile and wanting sex with children? When you look at this, well, then it's certainly not ‘bad' to be a wannabe or a devotee," Alex said.

Wanna Play?
In the hidden Wonderlands of sex, coming out about a balloon fetish, for example, is pretty much the same as coming out gay or even coming clean about your feelings for someone new. Some people never find the nerve. Others jump right in during that first dinner. Some have rotten relationships, or no luck in finding a partner at all. Others seem extremely lucky and are in wonderful life-long relationships. And others just aren't looking.I

The internet not only helps us connect, but lets us play peeping tom, too. As Steve "Rancid" Burt – he digs undead furry animals — put it, "Morbid curiosity is a trait all humans have. It's why we rubberneck at traffic accidents, and why people who find Howard Stern utterly shocking listen religiously. They can't believe they're hearing or seeing it, but they can't stop. There may be other reasons, such as monitoring perversity to have it shut down — religious nuts will do that — and some people are really secretly turned on and can't admit it."

So whether it's sweaty sneakers, undead cabbage, gorilla armpit hair, teddy bears, baby oil, leather, coughing, spitting, wool, silk, whispering doggerel, mashed potatoes, pee-stained pants or red nail polish that turns you on, someone out there loves you for it. Other people hate you and swear you'll burn in hell – only perverts find dogs sexier than stuffed raccoons! — but that's another story.

How is it that their can be soooo many different things that turn people on, i mean its one thing to like a certain sex, different genders have been around longer then we as humans have, but people who think baloons are sexy?!? I mean Baloons have only been around for maybe a century, and i hardly believe that in that time some people have somehow become "hardwired" to get all hot and sexy whenever they see baloons.

Certainly theirs no evolutionary reason for pedophilia, beastiality, baloons, dragons eating people, acting like a little girl, or any other weird obsession?

I think the truth is theirs alot of weird people, and the sooner we identify that the sooner we can start dealing with it. In the case of homosexuals i don't think theirs any need for "fixing," but i can surely see how theirs a need to trying and heal future Jeffrey Dahmers. I really don't think it should be anybodies business if someone chooses to get all hot and bothered about balloons, but i do think their should be help for people who are bothered by what arouses them, and that they'll never be getting any help so long as we have people running around screaming "i was born this way."

[thedguy]

I've always felt it was purely psychological, but not necessarily a product of your environment. I wouldn't be surprised if research finds that at least some people are born with a psychological disorder that may make them gay, while others it is a product of their environment...

It would be the only way I can explain the difference to the 2 gay men I've had in my family.

edit: Viper explains it best further down the page.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

tl;dr

[watisdis]

Originally Posted by Ottobon

Certainly theirs no evolutionary reason for pedophilia, beastiality, baloons, dragons eating people, acting like a little girl, or any other weird obsession?

Talking in these terms, there's no need for homosexuality either. The reason anything happens 'by evolution' is to further the existance and propagation of any given species. Under these conditions, it would make very little sense for evolution to "allow" behaviour which would contradict or impair this.

That being said, humans tend to be a very unique species, who if given the chance, like to live and/or conduct themselves outside the evolutionary constraints. If it wasn't for this phenomena, we wouldn't have had developed the modern world which we enjoy today (humans weren't meant to fly, and yet this hasn't stopped us from trying and super-succeeding this goal). What I'm getting at is that it really shouldn't matter if someone chooses/becomes homosexual. Humans have always lived outside evolutionary "terms" so why should this be an exception? About the moral issue: well, this just opens up another can of worms, and I find no matter how much people argue about it, nothing ever gets resolved (around in circles we go...). Like trying to diffuse a bomb with boxing gloves, no matter what you do or how you do it, it always ends in tears. Besides, as the OP said, it's not what this thread is about. Very touchy issue indeed.

[jayhawk]

It is said that 10% of all humans are homosexual.

You find that in other mammals, too.

I really think that it is hardwired into their brain, they are selected by either nature or God to be this way. And I am OK with that, as should someone who is gay, also.

As a choice? I can't buy that.

[Blind_Io]

The rates of homosexuality are at about 10%, and estimates by historians and cultural anthropologists say that's been pretty steady (maybe with a bump sometime around the Greeks) but it tends to hover right around 10%. If it were a choice then it would stand to reason that there would be an increase in homosexuality in more liberated cultures and a decrease in more draconian cultures. We don't see that, people who have been sheltered from homosexuality can come out as homosexuals, many (including some I know personally) say they knew from the earliest stages of puberty they were attracted to the same sex.

I'm not saying it's one or the other, I'm just punching holes in the argument to see what data can be brought to fill them.

[Viper007Bond]

I personally like Adam Carolla's take on it. A lot of people are born gay (error or not) and a lot of people are turned gay by issues in their childhood. Either way, it's not a choice.

[Blind_Io]

And so what if it is a choice? So far the only people I have found who argue against homosexuality
A) aren't getting any sex as it is
B) are miserable and want to make sure everyone around them is too
C) are horribly insecure and can't handle anyone who is different than them in even the slightest way
D) are religious nutjobs
E) all of the above.

[cvrefugee]

I was going to write out a well-thought response but I don't have the time, so...

[zenkidori]

Originally Posted by Viper007Bond

I personally like Adam Carolla's take on it. A lot of people are born gay (error or not) and a lot of people are turned gay by issues in their childhood. Either way, it's not a choice.

I pretty much agree with that, after having a few homosexual friends(and even people with homosexual parents), however there are a few people I've encountered who act gay to be different or cool. there are quite a lot of girls in college or high school who do lesbian shit just to get attention, but I don't think they're really gay.

I don't see the big deal with figuring it out either way, whoopdeefucking do. some people are gay, some people aren't, get the fuck over it already.

[Cobol74]

Live and let live I say.

I have only been "propositioned" once, very disturbing.

[Scooby5]

Originally Posted by thedguy

I've always felt it was purely psychological, but not necessarily a product of your environment. I wouldn't be surprised if research finds that at least some people are born with a psychological disorder that may make them gay, while others it is a product of their environment...

You want to re-think calling it a psychological DISorder, it's almost like you're calling homosexuality a disability? Could be that Freud has something to say about that.

Whether it's a choice or in the genes, i don't care because its just that some are and some are not. There is a very thin line between the two. One certainly and possibly two (still waiting on the verdict) of my cousins are gay and it's a tough choice for me to say genes or environment.

[Cobol74]

I think the point is that he can't do anything about it and should not be 'blamed'. Its like being blamed for being 5' 10", its not a choice your are or you are not.

[Goose+]

I have lesbian neighbours

[Blind_Io]

Originally Posted by Cobol74

I think the point is that he can't do anything about it and should not be 'blamed'. Its like being blamed for being 5' 10", its not a choice your are or you are not.

http://www.physorg.com/news107963161.html

[cdbob]

I agree completely that being gay is like being straight and do not think its a condition at all or even should be compared to one. I think that being homosexual is a perfectly normal thing. The thing I don't like is the view most of society has towards being gay, I wish they had more room in themselves to understand. I have several gay friends who keep it hidden not because they are "ashamed" but because they are made fun of by a bunch insecure people, if it was by decision gay marriage would be legal in all of the world.

[Lilleput]