With Europe all being for civil rights. . .

[haz]

Originally Posted by Tomo Motorsport

With europe all being for civil rights judging by this story, it seems in america, we have more rights for women.

Sorry gals, but Swiss Guard to stay all-male

c'mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooon ...............

You can't be serious???!!!

Catholics has to stand for this, alone, OK? Europe as a whole has nothing to do with this ... jeeeemeny .......

Originally Posted by justin syder

Actually that happens when Liberalism gets out of hand. At one point in Washington State a feminist group wanted to remove those pee sinks, dont know what they are called, from male bathrooms so that men would have to pee sitting down, making them equal to women. I am no making that up, if I could find the article or link I would have posted it.

That is what happens when crazy feminists and Liberals with no back bone allow women in our armed forces.

I would like to know where you get your information, where are "all of these rapes" and scandals going on? I dont think there are as much as you make it seem. Find me some statistics to back up your point otherwise I would think that you are blowing it out of proportion.

oh, you know you love liberals

haz

[ryosuke]

the swiss guard isn't from switzerland!

[haz]

ups, guess I read that article too quickly ... edited .. *whistles and fades away* ..

haz

[Tomo Motorsport]

In conclusion I would like to point out that europeans do not like to be criticized just as much as the americans. Just like the swiss guard does not represent europe as a whole, it can in some eyes, neither do events like that which happened at Abu-Ghraib, represent the american military or President Bush. The events at Abu-Ghraib were actions of a couple zealous soldiers. Not the whole military. Even though, most soldiers proudly do what they do in Iraq, they do respect civilians and the innocent. There has been much propaganda coming out of both sides of the political spectrum about the war, but the truth is that the war, no matter how horrid it can be, has freed a country from a dictator and his propaganda against freedom,rights for women, and democracy. Iraqis are free now. Terrorism is another story and threat that has to be dealt with, with the whole world participating, not just the U.S. and Great Britian. So there.

[Firecat]

Actually, Abu Ghraib was not an isolated incident. Things are worse for the Iraqis right now, and contrary to popular belief, women were much better off under Hussein then they are right now.

[watto]

Originally Posted by ryosuke

the swiss guard isn't from switzerland!

Well, it is. You have to be a member of the Swiss Army AND Catholic AND be at least 5'9... So, to be a member of the Swiss Army, you need to be Swiss, thus, the Swiss Guard is from Switzerland.

[zenkidori]

Originally Posted by Firecat

Actually, Abu Ghraib was not an isolated incident. Things are worse for the Iraqis right now, and contrary to popular belief, women were much better off under Hussein then they are right now.

when you actually go to Iraq instead of reading news reports then maybe I'll listen to you, but untill then I know at least 5 people who have been there or are there that would very much disagree with you.

[Tomo Motorsport]

Originally Posted by zenkidori

when you actually go to Iraq instead of reading news reports then maybe I'll listen to you, but untill then I know at least 5 people who have been there or are there that would very much disagree with you.

Can those people tell us how stuff is going in the civilian world. You know civil rights and stuff like that. It would awesome to get an opinion from someone who has actually seen it live and not some biased newsreporter.

[Firecat]

Originally Posted by zenkidori

when you actually go to Iraq instead of reading news reports then maybe I'll listen to you, but untill then I know at least 5 people who have been there or are there that would very much disagree with you.

What 5 people do you know? Soldiers?

[haz]

Originally Posted by Tomo Motorsport

neither do events like that which happened at Abu-Ghraib, represent the american military or President Bush.

Then who the hell does it represent then? Don't come and say "oh, it represents 10 soldiers, out of our huge army and only those" ...

Bush is the boss, it SO represents him and his mindset....

Originally Posted by Tomo Motorsport

Iraqis are free now.

1: Are you for real? What newschannel are you watching??????

2: Define "free", please!

haz

[///M]

The fact that the majority of the country doesn't have to live in fear because of their religious beliefs or ethnicity is a pretty big step. I know many Iraqis that are members of minorities, and they returned back there after decades of exile. Shiites and Kurds rightfully control the government. The insurgency is a sad biproduct, but ultimately if we want to play the blame game, European colonialism and it's ruthlessness helped foster an environment for the new way of thinking in the muslim world, fundamentalism. I still hold by my belief that for most Iraqis, it's a better place and it will ultimately have a better future.

Torture is also another sad biproduct of this war. The Americans aren't angels, not by a long shot. I just think that ultimately, there will come a time when there is a somewhat stable Iraq on it's two feet. When that happens, America will be put on the spot when the government demands some form of large-scale withdrawl of troops. You're already hearing about it now. Iraq is just the start of a path that could go both ways: total loss of control in the middle east or the spread of democracy.

[ryosuke]

Originally Posted by watto

Well, it is. You have to be a member of the Swiss Army AND Catholic AND be at least 5'9... So, to be a member of the Swiss Army, you need to be Swiss, thus, the Swiss Guard is from Switzerland.

thus the members of the swiss guard are from switzerland, but the swiss guard itself is not a swiss organization.

Originally Posted by Tomo Motorsport

In conclusion I would like to point out that europeans do not like to be criticized just as much as the americans. Just like the swiss guard does not represent europe as a whole, it can in some eyes, neither do events like that which happened at Abu-Ghraib, represent the american military or President Bush. The events at Abu-Ghraib were actions of a couple zealous soldiers. Not the whole military. Even though, most soldiers proudly do what they do in Iraq, they do respect civilians and the innocent. There has been much propaganda coming out of both sides of the political spectrum about the war, but the truth is that the war, no matter how horrid it can be, has freed a country from a dictator and his propaganda against freedom,rights for women, and democracy. Iraqis are free now. Terrorism is another story and threat that has to be dealt with, with the whole world participating, not just the U.S. and Great Britian. So there.

it were the actions of a lot of zealous soldiers who had no proper instructions and were free to act like that as long as it did not become public. its the governments responsibility to make sure that does not happen.
the vatican on the other hand, is not even a proper european nation. thats like blaming americans for something that happens in mexico...
we do like to be criticized, but properly. in fact there is so much self criticism in europe that we hardly make any progress because its a constant quarrel.
i am sure that is not much different in the US and usually its not up to us europeans to criticize your domestic policies, but what happens in iraq is not a domestic issue, it affects us as well and therefore you become subject to criticism and have to live with it.

[zenkidori]

Originally Posted by Firecat

What 5 people do you know? Soldiers?

3 soldiers 2 civilians. These people have either lived there, been stationed there or are still there, what are your sources? NBC? CNN?

EDIT: I am not by any means trying to justify this bullshit, I was against the war, I and still against the war, etc. but it's not nearly as bad as many make it out to be. There are quite a few spots in disarray, but the whole country isn't one big shitbox. Keep in mind it's not even reconstructed yet.

[Firecat]

And are these 2 civilians contractors or Iraqis?

The opinion of war criminals (soldiers) and war profiteers (contrators) mean nothing. They are on the side of the invading/occupying army and thus lack any form of impartiality.

I'll take the word of a reporter over them any day of the week.

My sources are both independent media and even mainstream/corporate media (to some degree) and Iraqi civilians (whom I know personally).

I'd really love to hear how the media in Iraq is biased and towards whom this bias leans. Not a single news network (NBC, FOX, CNN..etc.) have EVER mentioned the number of Iraqi deaths. The amount of soldiers killed is talked about all the time, but never the Iraqi deaths. It's pathetic. So media sources you think I listen too in order to get my view on the war, are in fact more biased towards the United States and its agenda (which is why they withhold information). They are more than likely serving your picture than mine.

Regardless, there are tons of people out there who have been to Iraq and will echo what I'm saying.

But the whole idea of having to have been there yourself to know what's going on is the most absurd statement I have read all month. Have you seen Bush in the oval office? Oh No! Maybe he's never really been there? Where you in Pakistan after the earthquake hit? Maybe it never really happened.

[Firecat]

Originally Posted by zenkidori

There are quite a few spots in disarray, but the whole country isn't one big shitbox. Keep in mind it's not even reconstructed yet.

My initial comments were very clear...
That prisoner abuse was not just isolated to Abu Ghraib
The currently things are worse
and that womens rights have declined (based on the draft const. etc.)

I think those are pretty accurate statements

[zenkidori]

2 ex-Iraqi citizens, the others are indeed military personnel. I don't know any contractors. Also I doubt that all these contractors are evil profiteering bastards as you believe. Maybe the companies are, but the workers are just joe-blow worker from wherever USA, just going where work sends them or offers to pay more to send them. The company my father works for considered going over, but backed out in the end. My father is in now way a profiteering evil bastard bent on exploiting the poor iraqi people.

I'd really love to hear how the media in Iraq is biased and towards whom this bias leans. Not a single news network (NBC, FOX, CNN..etc.) have EVER mentioned the number of Iraqi deaths. The amount of soldiers killed is talked about all the time, but never the Iraqi deaths. It's pathetic. So media sources you think I listen too in order to get my view on the war, are in fact more biased towards the United States and its agenda (which is why they withhold information). They are more than likely serving your picture than mine.

I can see how mainstream media is leaning on the support side many times, but maybe the reason that they don't report Iraqi deaths is either: A, there isn't really a reliable way to tally them, or B, nobody cares. I honestly don't give a shit about some crapbox country halfway around the world, or it's inhabitants. I am against the war because it's a gross waste of US resources and the Bush administration is using it as a way of diverting attention from the real prolems with this country, not because I have a bleeding heart for Iraqis. There are far more dangerous countries we could have gone after, Iraq is a waste of time.

Also I see a good amount of criticism in the mainstream media, especially recently, and there has always been a good amount in the independant media, so it's not like every newscast is all saying, "this war is good, look what good we are doing". I have seen quite a few recently basically saying, "wtf are we doing here?"

[Firecat]

I can agree with those sentiments for the most part.

The workers of these companies may not be evil bastards, the same way maybe these soldiers aren't either. However, they are carrying out the work of those that are. Which makes them just as culpable.

Regarding Iraqi deaths. What can I say? I think if they were reported on, support for the war would quickly dissipate. Which may be a reason why the administration isn't counting.