Cursed 92 Camaro is back...

[InfernalVortex]

oh dear....

What car is that?

[Spectre]

My 1987 Jaguar XJ6, the original "body wiring diagram". Your body wiring diagram is two pages, the one I posted plus another similar page of no greater complexity. What I posted is the counterpart for your diagram, just on my car.

I edited the post to include a spoiler, I suggest you go check it out.

[InfernalVortex]

And I think the reason you know most Camaro electronics better than most camaro owners is because I think most camaro owners are, like me, terrified of dealing with electrical BS. I lvoe my car because it's simple. There's not much electrical BS to break. Im not worried about Passkey and broken MAF sensors and O2 sensors and ECM issues. I got all that shit out of there, and that's pretty common among our circles.

I mean, I just spent all day hanging out with my buddy who just put an LS1 in his car:






And he and some friends were trying to get the thing tuned and it's been all kinds of trouble for them. The knock sensor is going haywire detecting knock all over the place when none seems to be apparent, and it's doing some WEIRD stuff with the tune... But they're working on it. Got a slight surging idle which could be caused by damn near anything, people almost give up on trying to chase those down it seems...

And me... I just mash teh gas, hit the key, and it rumbles to life...

That said I need to play with it for about 30 seconds befor it wants to stay running without operator input... but still.


And the thing with the jag diagram... NOTHING seems to be labelled, wtf?

[Spectre]

I think part of the fear of the electrical system is the lack of good documentation. GM didn't exactly go out of its way to circulate the information (but neither do most other manufacturers) and that certainly doesn't help. The advent of the internet as a tool has aided greatly in this sort of information getting out.

Yeah, the original Jag diagram has no labels on components, just index numbers. You look up the number of the component on another table to find out what it is. They do include wire color codes, though. As I said in the edit, they were forced to change that by not only angry customers but angry dealers and the resulting new manual is actually a model of how one should do wiring diagrams.

Since we're at it, let me try to alleviate a little fear of electrical systems for you. Here is all of the wiring diagram documentation that I could find. You'll want to save them to disk because I have no idea how long they'll be up over at Autozone's free site.

Engine wiring diagram, 1992 Camaro 5.0 TBI:



1992 Camaro body wiring, page 1:



1992 Camaro body wiring, page 2:

[Jupix]

Hey, do they have wiring diagrams for my car?

[_HighVoltage_]

You got rid of your O2 sensors? Didn't your fuel consumption go down the drain afterwards?

[InfernalVortex]

That stupid fan fuse was the problem. Whatever.


Also highvoltage... O2 sensors are for fuel injection. They tell teh computer whether the motor is running rich or lean so the computer can adjust teh air/fuel ration. I'm running a carburetor and I dont even have a computer in the car anymore. There's a reason carburetors get worse gas mileage - they're not as precise.

And in any case, I still have my o2 sensor, it's just wired into my Air/Fuel ratio gauge and does nothing else.

[_HighVoltage_]

Oh yeah...I didn't read the whole thread and just asumed you had a fuel-injected Camaro. My mistake then.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by Jupix

Hey, do they have wiring diagrams for my car?

No, they don't; but even if they did the problem is that 1) there's a lot of them and 2) the wiring for US market cars doesn't always match up with those for Euro market cars, so it's not the greatest guide in the world for you guys.

However, you can get them direct from Mercedes for very little money at www.startekinfo.com.

Originally Posted by _HighVoltage_

Oh yeah...I didn't read the whole thread and just asumed you had a fuel-injected Camaro. My mistake then.

He did have an EFI Camaro. He devolved it into a carbureted Camaro.

[InfernalVortex]

Originally Posted by Spectre

He did have an EFI Camaro. He devolved it into a carbureted Camaro.

Devolved? I improved it! I just made it EMP-proof.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by InfernalVortex

Devolved? I improved it! I just made it EMP-proof.

If you have HEI in it, it's not EMP proof.

[Labcoatguy]

Originally Posted by Spectre

If you have HEI in it it's not a mechanically-injected diesel, it's not EMP proof.

I once visited an old radio telescope where all the within a certain radius had to be old diesels, because it would pick up the discharges of spark plugs.

[InfernalVortex]

Originally Posted by Spectre

If you have HEI in it, it's not EMP proof.

I will not let petty logic get in the way of my delusions, sir.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by Labcoatguy

I once visited an old radio telescope where all the within a certain radius had to be old diesels, because it would pick up the discharges of spark plugs.

Eh... a carbureted car with a points-type ignition system is EMP-proof as well. EMP only fries semiconductors, integrated circuits and things like that. It doesn't damage relays - which is basically all that a points system is.

Originally Posted by InfernalVortex

I will not let petty logic get in the way of my delusions, sir.

Well, yeah, that and reality. But then, you own a Camaro, so we already knew that.

[InfernalVortex]

Oh whatever. You know a good carburetor is miles ahead of Throttle Body Injection. It's an improvement in every way.

[Spectre]

I'd disagree... I pitched the carb off my Jeep in favor of TBI and never regretted it.

(Carbs have issues offroad.)

[InfernalVortex]

Originally Posted by Spectre

I'd disagree... I pitched the carb off my Jeep in favor of TBI and never regretted it.

(Carbs have issues offroad.)

You just talking about the fuel sloshing around in the bowls or something else?

Regardless... TBI takes a lot of work and money to get any kind of real horsepower out of it... the carb... really doesn't. Its not as much of a bottleneck as my TBI system was. But remember, we're talking about stock GM TBI. Not whatever you had on your Jeep Im sure.

My only problem with throttle body injection is that you get all the disadvantages of a wetflow system and all the disadvantages of fuel injection. But a decent TBI system will work well if it can flow enough fuel and you know how to tune it. I very nearly went that route, but it seemed like even if I could tune it perfectly, it'd still limit me to around 250-275hp. Granted my pwoer level isn't much hiigher than that, but I've got room to grow with my setup. And the TBI probably would have bottlenecked me from teh start unless I went through the trouble of finding higher power injectors which are available. Unfortunately it was really ahrd to find any kind of reliable, consistent numbers about which injectors were which flowrate, and I dont have the equipment to flowtest them to see what they are. One injector is 25 lbs/hr here, and 40 lbs/hr over there... there was no reliable specs available that I could find. So I just got frustrated with it. And aftermarket TBI systems are pretty pricy, at least compared to carbs.


Also, been driving the car for the past hour... what a blast! Unfortunately even wrapping the starter in some insulation to keep the header heat off of it isnt enough to make sure I can refire it after I stall it. It just will not fire after it gets hot like that.

I only stalled it because some high school tart in an Accord pulled right up on my bumper at a traffic light and I was tryign to use the e-brake to keep from rolling back. Need to practice taht a bit more.

Im not sure if I'll go with a new starter, or try to wire up a remote starter solenoid...

[Spectre]

IIRC, you have the old style starter on that 92. Swap it out for the later gear reduction units and most of your problems will go away.

And yeah, TBI is limited as to just how far you can go... which is why I would have gone to port fuel injection instead of carbs.

[InfernalVortex]

Originally Posted by Spectre

IIRC, you have the old style starter on that 92. Swap it out for the later gear reduction units and most of your problems will go away.

And yeah, TBI is limited as to just how far you can go... which is why I would have gone to port fuel injection instead of carbs.

MPFI = $$$$$. Carbs = $

It's a pretty simple choice if you ask me. And the Tuned Port Injection that was stock on these cars is terrible for power. It will make torque all day long, but it falls flat at 4000 RPMs on a 305. Much less a 350 that can actaully breathe. I prefer TBI to TPI. Carbs are going to make just as much power as EFI, just EFI costs more. THe only reason to go EFI is if you're gonna daily drive it or you need to stay emissions legal. Neither are a big concern to me.

And I've blown through THREE newer gear reduction starters on this thing. Only my old clunker seems to be willing to survive. The following 3 starters are all gear reduction LT1 starters:

The first starter was a cheap ebay starter that broke when we were first trying to fire it. The timing was too advanced, kicked back on it and the bendix broke.

The second starter after about 5 cranks would just constantly spin, but not kick the bendix out. You could pull the key out of the ignition, and the thing would just spin on its own. The only way to make the starter motor stop was to disconnect the battery.

The third starter did exactly the same thing as the second. Worked fine for a day. Then it broke in exactly the same manner.

between each of those starters, I put my old clunker back in, and it always worked without a hitch except when it was hot. I wire it up exactly the same way. It has exactly the same solenoid on it. But the newer ones just keep frying themselves somehow. The weird thing is that they test fine on the parts stores' stupid machines, but as soon as they go on the car they just spin as long as the battery is connected. I'm convinced if they had a way to give the starter power without engaging the other terminal (like how they're wiredi n teh car, wires for power, and a wire from the ignition switch to switch it on) then you'd see the same problem I had.

But whatever... it's just weird. I want to think it's a wiring issue, but I dont see how taht could be when my old starter works just fine, every time, and the new starters work fine for a day or two, then they break for apparently no reason.

[Spectre]

Where are you getting these starters? Are they aftermarket units, or are they actual PG250/260 or Nippon Denso units?

You're right, it sounds like a wiring issue. Perhaps you should check your wiring above the starter.