jlk69's 96 Nissan 300ZX 2+0 N/A

[Nocturnal]

Honestly, if you cant argue with Americans about how wrong they are at everything, whats the point in having the internet?

Anyway...Most D1/EDC cars are turbocharged, very few these days are N/A. Thats because its easier to free more of the engines potential with one, and despite what these ''turbo lag OMG11!!'' people claim, theyre extraordinarily easy to keep spooled by simply using the proper gear. Although lag still occurs, in most cases it isnt even noticeable, let alone a problem. The problem is, internet folk get hold of it, then every time they hear the word 'turbo', tell everyone how they cant possibly be any good.

I think the biggest difference between US and European ways of thinking is down to the drivetrain. It was once described to me by a US chap with an 11 second drag/street car that ''if you have to worry about what gear you're in, your engines not big enough''. I think this is down to the US obsession with automatics. Afterall, its only recently that manual cars are really starting to sell over there, whereas they've been popular here for decades. The fact that its very simple to drop a manual from 5th to 2nd means we can produce smaller engines with narrower torque bands. All IMO of course, and as was said, its not a wrong way to think, just different.

[thedguy]

Originally Posted by Vambeer

I wanna ask a simple question...If there is so much "turbo lag" and turbos are pretty much crap, how come drifters and even more importantly WRC cars use them? Oh well, i guess they don't really care about throttle response and imediate power...

I didn't say you'd have a 100% undrivable engine, the key to a turbo car is load and being in the right gear for a given speed/acceleration. The moment you try and drive the car in the wrong gear though, you'll run into problems, or if the car is poorly geared you can drop out of boost.

The problem with cars with small engines and massive turbos is the fact that you have as Nocturnal said "relatively no power" at lower engines speeds, giving a hard kick when boost comes on, some people like that (some drifters use that to their advantage), anyone interested in actually accelerating quickly rather have the torque and throttle response. Hell a great example is the 2.7t A6 vs the non-turb 4.2 v8, the v8 has 50hp (and 200lbs) more and yet cant keep up with even the auto 2.7t mostly due to the bottom end torque.


I would like to point out that many F1 drivers of the 80's hated turbo engines because they'd get a 300% rise in power over such a short amount of engine speed that the engines made the cars hard to drive, that aspect I'm guessing can help a drifter when they know when/where to expect it. There are also tricks to keeping the engine in boost while driving,accelerating earlier than normal is the usual.

WRC cars use anti-lag.

Originally Posted by Sruikyl

Wow, how did this become a flame war about anti lag, engine swaps, turbo lag, drifters, rally drivers and v8's?
The OP hasn't even replied to this thread or said anything about a swap.. maybe hes happy with how it is and doesnt need some vhqsr300detttt engine mounted to a mt5966 36 speed hydromechno transmission out of a skyline Gee Tee Arr.

My bad.

/raises hand.
// I'll take it to pms with Nocturnal

[Vambeer]

Hey...newsbreak...Anti-lag is no rocket science. My friend's 106 Rallye has an after-market ECU with anti-lag!!! 21st century calling guys!Turbo F1 on the other hand was nearly 30 years ago...wtf?! Also, you said something about driving the car in the wrong gear...?!!??!?!? WHY?! what is the point in having gears if you are in the wrong one!? Move you hand and foot and change one...YES YOU CAN! And finally...who said anything about small engines and massive turbos? (like 1.1 with a T78 for example?). If you are a moron and can't create a drivable and fast car it's not turbo's fault. it's yours! i am talking about a 2.0lt making 350HP, easily, with NO noticeable lag and buckets of torque.

[prizrak]

Originally Posted by stevanford1

FD RX-7's should show you that sequential turbos don't work. Good in theory, not in reality. Also RB26s are not even close to bulletproof. 2jz-gte is what you call bulletproof.

BTW mate nice car.

FD is hardly the only car with sequential turbos. Considering that TG reviewed a 1200HP Skyline that never brakes down I would have to disagree with you Yes the 2JZ is a great engine and is arguably stronger than the RB but the RB is for all intents and purposes bullet proof. 400-500HP is more than safe in that engine.

Also, you said something about driving the car in the wrong gear...?!!??!?!? WHY?! what is the point in having gears if you are in the wrong one!? Move you hand and foot and change one...YES YOU CAN!

How about you are in top gear on the hwy and want to accelerate. Most turbos won't be in boost at 50-60mph in OD gear (would be pretty hard to find cars w/o one these days) so if you want to accelerate you have drop a gear or two wait for spool and burn a crap load of fuel.* With a bigger engine it is much easier to get power/torque in lower RPMs, which would help in the situation I described.

*This is personal experience speaking.

[fbc]

Originally Posted by prizrak

How about you are in top gear on the hwy and want to accelerate. Most turbos won't be in boost at 50-60mph in OD gear (would be pretty hard to find cars w/o one these days) so if you want to accelerate you have drop a gear or two wait for spool and burn a crap load of fuel.* With a bigger engine it is much easier to get power/torque in lower RPMs, which would help in the situation I described.

*This is personal experience speaking.

My personal experience - the Astra's response in 6th at 100km/h is good - very good in fact. I've been really impressed by how it responds actually, especially given I came from a 4AGE in my MR2, which was a superb motor.

[stevanford1]

Originally Posted by prizrak

FD is hardly the only car with sequential turbos. Considering that TG reviewed a 1200HP Skyline that never brakes down I would have to disagree with you Yes the 2JZ is a great engine and is arguably stronger than the RB but the RB is for all intents and purposes bullet proof. 400-500HP is more than safe in that engine.
.

First of all, that 1200hp Skyline was running simultaneous turbos (working at the same time) not sequential. Supras also have sequential turbos and i hear of many stories where they have problems with controlling boost even with a boost controller. Also i don't know if you have ever heard of a car called a eunos cosmo. They are a mazda, the only production car to ever come out with a 20B, they have sequential turbos and they are SHIT. My cousin had to replace the turbos twice before he went with a big single turbo. Moral of the story is sequential turbos suck. If you are going twin turbo route run the turbos simultaneous.

Secondly I will guarantee you that the skyline in that show (BTW it was in Clarkson at full throttle) was running either a N1 or GT500 block because the standard block would be in millions of pieces by now. Upto 500hp however yes it should be fine.

[Nocturnal]

Originally Posted by stevanford1

Supras also have sequential turbos and i hear of many stories where they have problems with controlling boost even with a boost controller.

Utter tosh.

Also i don't know if you have ever heard of a car called a eunos cosmo. Moral of the story is sequential turbos suck.

More accurately, Id say your cousin doesnt know what hes doing, and that you know very little about what youre saying. Also, only the fourth-gen Cosmo's came with the 20B, and even then, most came with the 13B instead.

I will guarantee you that the skyline in that show was running either a N1 or GT500 block because the standard block would be in millions of pieces by now. Upto 500hp however yes it should be fine.

An N1 block will still only handle around 700bhp on stock internals, a stock RB26 around 550bhp.

[prizrak]

My personal experience - the Astra's response in 6th at 100km/h is good - very good in fact. I've been really impressed by how it responds actually, especially given I came from a 4AGE in my MR2, which was a superb motor.

How big is your engine and how much does your car weigh? I'm running a 1.8 through an slushbox on an almost 3400lbs monster with AWD to boot. There are just alot of things that make a difference in throttle response, most sedans with a 4cyl turbo won't be able to respond all that well out of turbo range.

First of all, that 1200hp Skyline was running simultaneous turbos (working at the same time) not sequential. Supras also have sequential turbos and i hear of many stories where they have problems with controlling boost even with a boost controller. Also i don't know if you have ever heard of a car called a eunos cosmo. They are a mazda, the only production car to ever come out with a 20B, they have sequential turbos and they are SHIT. My cousin had to replace the turbos twice before he went with a big single turbo. Moral of the story is sequential turbos suck. If you are going twin turbo route run the turbos simultaneous.

Secondly I will guarantee you that the skyline in that show (BTW it was in Clarkson at full throttle) was running either a N1 or GT500 block because the standard block would be in millions of pieces by now. Upto 500hp however yes it should be fine.

1) Never said it was a sequential turbo. Though I can see where it was confusing, I meant that RB is very reliable because of the 1200HP Skyline not that it had reliable sequentials.

2) I am comparing the RB engine to a VG engine in terms of reliability. VG30DETT is known to have issues even with no tune, RB25/26DETT at the same time is known to be very reliable even while putting out 400-500hp.

[fbc]

Originally Posted by prizrak

How big is your engine and how much does your car weigh? I'm running a 1.8 through an slushbox on an almost 3400lbs monster with AWD to boot. There are just alot of things that make a difference in throttle response, most sedans with a 4cyl turbo won't be able to respond all that well out of turbo range.

2.0 4cyl / 1400kgs.

[prizrak]

Originally Posted by fbc

2.0 4cyl / 1400kgs.

So you get a 200cc/300lb advantage

[thedguy]

Originally Posted by Vambeer

Hey...newsbreak...Anti-lag is no rocket science. My friend's 106 Rallye has an after-market ECU with anti-lag!!! 21st century calling guys!Turbo F1 on the other hand was nearly 30 years ago...wtf?! Also, you said something about driving the car in the wrong gear...?!!??!?!? WHY?! what is the point in having gears if you are in the wrong one!? Move you hand and foot and change one...YES YOU CAN! And finally...who said anything about small engines and massive turbos? (like 1.1 with a T78 for example?). If you are a moron and can't create a drivable and fast car it's not turbo's fault. it's yours! i am talking about a 2.0lt making 350HP, easily, with NO noticeable lag and buckets of torque.

Anti-lag isn't rocket science, but have your friend enable it on his Pug and watch how long his turbo and header lasts and how far he'll make it down the road before the cops pull him over for excessive noise as well as the constant flames shooting out the back.

The reason you'd be in the "wrong gear" is as clarkson showed on the FQ400, you're on the highway and decide you want to pass. A car with a much smaller, more responsive turbo or just a bigger engine wouldn't have an issue. Sometimes you just want to gain a few extra MPH to get around someone when you're nice and relaxed and enjoying your drive.

+ YouTube Video

Also if you look back at my first post, my entire point was that (all things being equal) if you start with a bigger engine you can get more power over a smaller engine while producing a better torque curve, throttle response, and less wear and tear on parts. You will NEVER convince me or any sane person that 500hp out of a 1.5L turbo is going to be every bit as usuable as 500hp from a 3.0 Turbo.

BTw, don't get so worked up, it's just an internet forum. Hell Nocturnal and I are just having fun with this.

[stevanford1]

How about i start another thread so when don't ruin this thread anymore.

[thedguy]

Originally Posted by stevanford1

How about i start another thread so when don't ruin this thread anymore.

I say we run it into the ground, we still seem to be at about 3000 ft and leveling out

Plus I think the op gave up on this thread long ago.

[stevanford1]

Originally Posted by thedguy

I say we run it into the ground, we still seem to be at about 3000 ft and leveling out

Plus I think the op gave up on this thread long ago.

Yeah but i feel bad so i stared one on turbos so we can argue there and not on this guys thread on his car.

[fbc]

Originally Posted by prizrak

So you get a 200cc/300lb advantage

True, but proves the point that you can't generalise with your "most turbos" comment.

[prizrak]

Originally Posted by fbc

True, but proves the point that you can't generalise with your "most turbos" comment.

Actually I think it proves thedguy's point about bigger engines

[jlk69]

I just found this thread. I wish I had a turbo car, but could not afford one this nice. ($6,700 two years ago) I love my Z and I am very happy with it's reliability. This is my everyday driver and has over 220,000 miles on it with all original engine and transmission. (original owner had a long freeway only commute to work) I have only had to do routine maintainance plus a new starter since I bought it. If I really had to have aa turbo car I would sell this one and buy another one. I would not do a TT swap or any other engine swap. The reliability would suffer and cost would go up.Of course, I am not racing this car so power is not a huge factor.