how much for Hydrogen ?

[emil_t]

I've been told by numerous people and read all kinds of stuff on the net that states "Hydrgen maybe the future", i understand that keeping hydrogen lquid in a car is very expensive, and that with technology advancement the price will go down, but i didn't find anywhere the price of 1 ltr/1 gallon of hidrogen, i've heard that you need a significat ammount of electricity to get the hydrogen molecules from water.
I've seen some gas stations that sell hydrogen (in pictures) so i guess it must be reasnoble

[Spectre]

The major cost in producing hydrogen is the amount of electricity you need to produce hydrogen gas from water.

In the US, since the idiot greenies stopped us from converting to nuclear power plants in the 70s, electricity is not that cheap, so hydrogen isn't all that competitive here. With enough nuclear plants, electricity gets stupidly cheap and hydrogen becomes a very viable fuel (although really it's just an energy transfer mechanism).

One of the biggest advantages is that hydrogen would not have to be delivered to the fuel station in large trucks; it can be produced on site with electricity and water.

[the Interceptor]

How much is hydrogen, a good question! I did a search, and I came up with a price higher than current fuel, like 2.30 Euros a liter (compared to 1.50 Euros fuel is right now). That could change with a huge demand of hydrogen however, increasing demand, upping production and therefore dropping the price.

[evets]

I have recently read several articles about some hydrogen technology being developed by M.I.T. and being currently tested by BMW using a process called Hydrogen Boosting. Instead of using hydrogen as the sole fuel, hydrogen boosting, uses a gasoline engine with the alternator sending a charge into a water H2O tank. The charge separates hydrogen molocules which are collected and mixed with gas (instead of fuel to air mixture this uses a hydrogen to fuel) which is far more combustable mixture. This mixture is injected resulting with 40% to 50% in fuel economy and a slight increase in engine horsepower! This hydrogen boosting technology (although still based on use of gasoline engines) has some promising features and may be more readily attained.

[Vector]

^Well it would still use a fuel to air mixture... can't have combustion without air right?

[FAB 1]

Hydrogen is the future. Most car makers are spending millions on building hydrogen cars, in some cases more than electric cars. Also hydrogen makes more sense than electric, we all know the obvious problems with electric cars. But with hydrogen, you simply fill up, like you do with petrol. It is also possible to convert petrol cars to run on hydrogen, but not so with electric.

Hydrogen also would allow the oil companies to stay in business, as they could turn petrol stations into hydrogen stations. Don't under estimate the power of the oil companies, they woun't let thier business go.

They will, over time, phase out petrol and turn oil refineries into hydrogen plants, that would make sense and quite logical, as most oil refineries are by the sea and salt water is needed for hydrogen.

In someways, you could say that nature (or God) is telling us to use hydrogen, as the sea levels are rising, giving us more salt water to produce hydrogen.

[emil_t]

well does it reduce significantly the carbon footprint, because it's what it's all about, or maybe that oil won't last much long, some say in the next decade we should be dry out

so electricty in a high percentage comes from coal plants, and coal plants produce CO2, now the thing is how much gases result from makeing hydrogen, let alone the fact that if you tranform an otto engine into a hydrogen engine it needs lot's more fuel(hydrogen) - see the 7 series project - and if you use electric ... well i don't know, so tehnically you need more hidrogen, because most probably cars will be converted rather than having their engine replaced, and if all cars wloud run on hydrogen then we'll need loads more electricity to produce hydrogen, and probably the price will go up, and a cause of a high price could be converting all gas stations to hydrogen producers/sellers.

or maybe hydrogen just isn't the future.

[DTMracer]

From my perspective, we'll probably see Hydrogen IC engines much sooner than fuel cells because the IC engine already exists, and there aren't that many tweaks needed to make it burn hydrogen (Remember, an IC engine just needs some sort of chemical reaction to operate). However, the big problem is that you get a big decrease in efficiency at the moment (anywhere from 35% up) compared to a petrol burning IC engine due to the very nature of hydrogen itself, and as others have mentioned, it is very energy intensive at this stage to generate hydrogen on a large scale, which means that the environmental benefits overall are not very great.

Storing hydrogen is also another big issue, though its not quiet as bad as people think it is (ie your can won't explode if the tank gets hit). If you were converting, say, a 7-series to run purely on hydrogen, than the sacrifice in space won't be so great, whereas in something like a Fiat 500 you'd effectively have no boot space at all, and not to mention interior space will suffer because of all the future crash safety legislations coming in.

The political side of things is also worth considering, as oil companies like the idea that people would need to go "fill up" their cars, and its also why I like the idea of an electric car so much. Also, its easier for politicians to just keep muttering on about hydrogen rather than actually go out and find decent solutions (e.g. make public transport better, find ways to generate electricity cleanly) to win votes.

A colleague of mine was speaking to somebody at Melbourne Uni about converting a conventional 6-cylinder engine to burn hydrogen, and they have some sort of new way to compress the hydrogen so you get better efficiency. I don't know too much about this, but it seems promising.

Either way, I'm looking forward to the future of motoring. I would still like to be able to have fun when oil runs out.

[bone]

if they can make hydrogen on site? why can't they make it on board? just fuel your car with water, energy from a battery turns it into hydrogen, spins the engine and a bunch of alternators, and just add a solar panel to the roof to make up for the energy loss...

hmm, seems so logical that if it were possible, they'd already done it

[DTMracer]

Do you realize the amount of gear currently needed to produce hydrogen, and how big each of the components are?

[H0nzik]

Originally Posted by bone

if they can make hydrogen on site? why can't they make it on board? just fuel your car with water, energy from a battery turns it into hydrogen, spins the engine and a bunch of alternators, and just add a solar panel to the roof to make up for the energy loss...

hmm, seems so logical that if it were possible, they'd already done it

Uhm, as far as I know, both in the fuel cell or in the hydrogen IC engine, hydrogen reacts with oxygen to form water again. So that means you need as much energy to extract the hydrogen from water as you get as the engine output plus a lot of extra energy that gets wasted as heat in the process. Otherwise, you would just get a perpetual motion. Therefore it would be a much better idea to power the car straight form the solar cells, if you could get solar cells that are powerful enough.

[Ottobon]

According to the information the Honda FCX gave it costs about $5 a "Gallon", the problem with that is you only get 1/4 the BTU power compared to a gasoline "Gallon", but considering Hydrogen can't really even be measured the same way as gas i don't think thats the issue, spectre pretty much covered it.

Originally Posted by Spectre

One of the biggest advantages is that hydrogen would not have to be delivered to the fuel station in large trucks; it can be produced on site with electricity and water.

Exactly, if only they could add something so it didn't burn invisible, then it would be a bit safer and 100x cooler.

[airmenair]

^^Adding something to make it burn with color would be easy, much like adding "scent" to otherwise odorless natural gas.

[efoolution]

Originally Posted by the Interceptor

[...]I did a search, and I came up with a price higher than current fuel, like 2.30 Euros a liter (compared to 1.50 Euros fuel is right now).

... Hydrogen (when compressed to liquid form) contains about 3 Times the energy as Petrol or Diesel, taken that into consideration, you´d pay about 80cent (Euro-cent, not Dollar-cent) for the same amount of energy right now ... plus +dramtic pause+ TAXES.

Originally Posted by airmenair

^^Adding something to make it burn with color would be easy, much like adding "scent" to otherwise odorless natural gas.

... I doubt that a bit, unless you´d want to use the hydrogren in combustion engines or in a Fuel-cell without emissions or damaging sideffects. But it´s not really my expertise, so ...

[ESPNSTI]

Originally Posted by efoolution

... Hydrogen (when compressed to liquid form) contains about 3 Times the energy as Petrol or Diesel

I'm pretty sure you have that backwards, by volume, liquid hydrogen contains 3 to 4 times less energy as petrol or diesel. (That's why the tanks in those hydrogen cars are huge.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_hydrogen#Drawbacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

[efoolution]

Originally Posted by ESPNSTI

I'm pretty sure you have that backwards, by volume, liquid hydrogen contains 3 to 4 times less energy as petrol or diesel.

... yes, but not in liquid form, it´s used as rocket-fuel remember?

Per Kilo (mass, not volume!) it contains about 3 times the Energy of Petrol. The Tanks are so big and heavy becuse it´s quite tricky stuff to contain, a normal tank for Gas won´t do. I know it´s a bit confusing since you pay your fuel by volume, not by mass. But you´d get a lot more Energy from a Kilo Hydrogen then from a Kilo Petrol, and by a lot more I mean, fyling a plane in the sky compared to flying to the moon.

[ESPNSTI]

Originally Posted by efoolution

... yes, but not in liquid form, it´s used as rocket-fuel remember?

Yes, very much so in liquid form, take a look at this, and look at the "Energy Density by Volume" column for liquid hydrogen, and compare that to gasoline and diesel fuel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

Originally Posted by efoolution

Per Kilo (mass, not volume!) it contains about 3 times the Energy of Petrol. The Tanks are so big and heavy becuse it´s quite tricky stuff to contain, a normal tank for Gas won´t do. I know it´s a bit confusing since you pay your fuel by volume, not by mass. But you´d get a lot more Energy from a Kilo Hydrogen then from a Kilo Petrol, and by a lot more I mean, fyling a plane in the sky compared to flying to the moon.

Now remember you were providing an argument about the price per liter of hydrogen, and since liter is a measurement of volume, you were not talking about mass.
Yes I know hydrogen has more energy by mass than gasoline and diesel, but 1kg of hydrogen takes up a lot more volume than 1kg of gasoline or diesel.

[efoolution]

We are running around in circles ...

Originally Posted by ESPNSTI

Now remember you were providing an argument about the price per liter of hydrogen

No I wasn´t, read my first post again. Hydrogen is NEVER sold unpressurized (from 35 MPa up), and like any other Gas youre able to get at a petrol station (GPL, CNG or LNG), it´s charged not as "unpressurized volume", but as the compacted Gas or Liquid. It might say "litre" on the Sign, but that´s "litre at certain pressure" wich means it´s basically sold by mass, not by volume at normal pressure.

Like I said, It might be a bit confusing since you normally deal just with volume at "normal" pressure, not with pressurized volumes (wich equal more mass).

Yes I know hydrogen has more energy by mass than gasoline and diesel, but 1kg of hydrogen takes up a lot more volume than 1kg of gasoline or diesel.

That´s why it´s compressed until it becomes a liquid, so you can store more Energy in less space.

[ESPNSTI]

Originally Posted by efoolution

We are running around in circles

Yes we are, and I think you're dead wrong, but I don't think I'll ever convince you of that.

[Serj]

with all this tech talk of Hydrogen-powered goodness, I am frankly surprised that we don't have the "FinalGear H-car project"