There's a limit to the hp in a front wheel drive car???

[adrianpike]

Originally Posted by andyhui01

btw, on a side note, this got me wondering, were'nt FWD cars developed to help lower the production/maintanence cost of the cars and not help increase performance?....

Correct. They also remove the need for a transmission/driveshaft tunnel, thereby increasing available interior room.
FWD cars were not and are not designed with performance as a top metric.

[Raven18940]

Originally Posted by freerider

I know that the size of the tyre mathers a lot, but this was on a sidenote, bc this is not always(bigger tyres rear) and the difference is most of the time very little. Also, most stock cars will indeed have 4 equal wheels, but where talking about sportscars here.

I thought we were talking about normal cars with lots of power.

1) Torque steer is a bitch even with the most tricked out front ends.

2) When power is being applied, and the front wheels bag up, the car will understeer like a bitch.

And a RWD car oversteers like a bitch, what''s your point?

[general]

The purpose of FWD was to save money and nothing else

[sandor_]

Originally Posted by Jostyrostelli

Yeah FWD powercars sucks!

rear wheel/rear engine is where its at... and air cooled not water

[freerider]

Originally Posted by Raven18940

And a RWD car oversteers like a bitch, what''s your point?

But you have to agree that oversteer is most of the time more controllable and more fun as understeer. But this could be me offcourse.

Greetz Johan

[Raven18940]

More controllable, don't think so. Even when I really push it and the car starts to understeer I just back off the throttle. Controlling oversteer in more of a tight rope walk.

More fun, well I have to give you that.

I'm not saying FWD is better, just that it makes more sense more of the time for a daily driven car. For fun I want to get an old Supra and strip it out, but that's when I have the time and spare cash lying around.

[Cubits]

Odds are, a well appointed fwd would beat a rwd down a twisty road due to the lower inertia and weight, and increased stability.

Hence how 205's own WRX's etc.

[andyhui01]

^if you're talking about more controllable, I guess FWD is better, but thats why they developed FWD in the first place... but if you compared having oversteer and understeer while on the track, all the drivers would prefer oversteer it doesn't slow you down as much as understeer while cornering....

[Cubits]

Understeer can be tuned out of the handling pretty effectively until you get to stupid power outputs. The torque sensing style differential really nails the understeer away by effectively steering the car with the torque distribution.

Note how well the Focus RS did on the test track in top gear.

Of course, you do get some wicked side effects from that too... But it's a matter of priorities.

You can get plenty of oversteer in a fwd too, but of course, power oversteer is out of reach.

[Leppy]

Originally Posted by Raven18940

I thought we were talking about normal cars with lots of power.

And a RWD car oversteers like a bitch, what''s your point?

Mate. You can drive a RWD car further to the limit than you can a FWD car. Weight distribution is closer to 50:50 and weight transfer gives more traction to the rear wheels. Given the same power, wheelbase, tyres, body etc... a RWD car will be much, much better at putting power to the ground.

[freerider]

Yes, oversteer is more controllable. When you have oversteer, you can countersteer and still make the turn (powersliding). You say that when you have understeer and give less throttle the understeer will be gone. This is not true. You will have less understeer, but your car will still won't be able to make the turn right. And I find oversteer to be a more natural thing as understeer.

A stupid example, but the most accessable for the most of you. Try to drive a fwd car in gt4 with loads of power and than try it with a rwd car (without driving aids offcourse). You'll see that the rwd ones are better controllable.

@Leppy, what you stated has been said before in this thread(that rwd cars can put more power to the ground).

Greetz Johan

[Leppy]

Originally Posted by freerider

Yes, oversteer is more controllable. When you have oversteer, you can countersteer and still make the turn (powersliding). You say that when you have understeer and give less throttle the understeer will be gone. This is not true. You will have less understeer, but your car will still won't be able to make the turn right. And I find oversteer to be a more natural thing as understeer.

A stupid example, but the most accessable for the most of you. Try to drive a fwd car in gt4 with loads of power and than try it with a rwd car (without driving aids offcourse). You'll see that the rwd ones are better controllable.

@Leppy, what you stated has been said before in this thread(that rwd cars can put more power to the ground).

Greetz Johan

It was in defence of a comment made to me.

Everything you said has been said before (by you once and by others also) as well but I don't remember a comment being made directly to you.

[freerider]

Originally Posted by Leppy

It was in defence of a comment made to me.

Everything you said has been said before (by you once and by others also) as well but I don't remember a comment being made directly to you.

I wasn't meant to attack you. En contraire (french for in contrary), I respect your knowledge about cars.

Oh, and 50:50 weight distribution is only perfect in theory. In practice it's better to have a bit more weight in the back (about 45:55), but this is discussable.

Greetz Johan

[Raven18940]

Originally Posted by Leppy

Mate. You can drive a RWD car further to the limit than you can a FWD car. Weight distribution is closer to 50:50 and weight transfer gives more traction to the rear wheels. Given the same power, wheelbase, tyres, body etc... a RWD car will be much, much better at putting power to the ground.

I'll say again that for out and out performance FWD isn't the best, but as a compromise in a car to be driven everyday it's fine. Sure RWD is great when it's dry, but in the real world, where it rains and snows, FWD makes more sense more of the time. For me anyway.

Originally Posted by freerider

Yes, oversteer is more controllable. When you have oversteer, you can countersteer and still make the turn (powersliding). You say that when you have understeer and give less throttle the understeer will be gone. This is not true. You will have less understeer, but your car will still won't be able to make the turn right. And I find oversteer to be a more natural thing as understeer.

Hang on you're mixing and matching different types of oversteer and understeer. I was talking about understeering because of using too much power, you're talking about understeering cause of going too fast into a corner. You're also talking about oversteering cause of using too much power, but if you oversteered the car cause you're going too fast odds are you wouldn't be able to complete the turn.

A stupid example, but the most accessable for the most of you. Try to drive a fwd car in gt4 with loads of power and than try it with a rwd car (without driving aids offcourse). You'll see that the rwd ones are better controllable.

Ummmm, I found the FWD car more controllable because without actually feeling the car I couldn't control the slide of the RWD car. Now something like a RR 911, I can oversteer those like nobodies busy in that game.

[general]

and the for the 50:50 part it does exist in practical the boxter has 53 at rear 47 front.
Mazda RX-8 and the new MX-5 have 50:50 and also AE 86.These are one of the best handling cars ever made in japan especially MX-5 and Trueno

[freerider]

Originally Posted by Raven18940

Hang on you're mixing and matching different types of oversteer and understeer. I was talking about understeering because of using too much power, you're talking about understeering cause of going too fast into a corner. You're also talking about oversteering cause of using too much power, but if you oversteered the car cause you're going too fast odds are you wouldn't be able to complete the turn.

Ummmm, I found the FWD car more controllable because without actually feeling the car I couldn't control the slide of the RWD car. Now something like a RR 911, I can oversteer those like nobodies busy in that game.

1) I didn't mix them, this is how you interpreted them. When you overpower in a turn you will start to understeer with fwd, so your car will be sliding. If you would lessen the throttle at that point, it wouldn't help much anymore(also depending on your speed). The same is with oversteer. If you have oversteer and then lessen the throttle, you'd still be sliding(but less hard and finally your car will have full control). And even with rwd, when you come into the corner to fast, you will have understeer.
2) I think this is personal. I rather have a car that oversteers, bc I think it's more controllable (even in real live). I even didn't find rwd cars hard to drive in snow or rain. If you would like best traction in those conditions, you have to buy an awd or 4wd car.
But I've said it before, I think that there's a personal preference involved here.

Greetz Johan

[Leppy]

Originally Posted by general

and the for the 50:50 part it does exist in practical the boxter has 53 at rear 47 front.
Mazda RX-8 and the new MX-5 have 50:50 and also AE 86.These are one of the best handling cars ever made in japan especially MX-5 and Trueno

Gees what a great car that was... actually no... Still is a fantastic car.

[Cubits]

The ae86 is a natural understeerer. God it's been hyped out the wazoo by that anime! The design copies the ford escort to a tee, including having a live-axle under the rear and a 1600cc twincam up front. RS1600 anyone?

The MX-5 too, is really showing it's age, with a fun but not terribly fast cornering ability, hampered by being a little too loose and taily. Stock S1 205's can match an MX-5 at a track, despite having 30hp less and being fwd.

These two cars have the same strength, and that is communication between the car and driver. They are very transparent handlers, which makes them a joy to scoot about in, and lets you wring them of every ounce of grip.

Personally, i believe the Mk1 MR2 (aka AW11) is far superior to both. With the supercharged engine, they really fly, and have simply gorgeous handling. I very nearly bought one of these instead of my peugeot. Lovely rear wheel drive, like a japanese elise.

Freerider, GT4's handling of FWD physics leaves a lot out. Gone is the snap lift-oversteer of the french hatchbacks which is such a valueable tool in corner entry (there is a very watered down lift-oversteer present). In reality, you come into the corner trailing on the brakes and get wonderfully controllable oversteer.

I find the RWD physics less believeable though. The snappy fishtails are just too extreme, and you can't really power oversteer because something reigns in the engine. Try pushing the rear tyres to their lateral extreme and then hitting the gas, it should oversteer but the revs don't climb and nothing happens... It's most unusual (even on the N2 tyres!).

[Z Draci]

The reaon why there's a theoretical limit for FWD cars is that the power is too overwhelming for the front tyre's grip. In an FWD car, the front tyres have to both steer and harness the engine's power. This is extremely bad for race cars that have to deal with very rapid front tyre wear. The rear tyres can be perfectly fine while the fronts can be torn apart!

There's three points for a tyre--cornering, braking, accelerating. For an FWD car, two of the tyres have to do all three of those. Therefore, it's much easier for the tyre to lose grip and start sliding. This is why too much power is not very functional for a FWD car. You won't be able to turn much if you have globs of power.

When the front tyres slide before the rear, this is often referred to as understeer. This is safe for the novice driver because the car will not spin out of control easier than with an RWD car. Most often, a FWD car will just skid straight and can be put back into control by simply straightening the wheel. In a RWD car, it takes more effort. Therefore, most cars are FWD now and those with RWD have some fancy TCS and stability control systems on them.

A RWD car is "faster" because the driving tyres are separate from the steering tyres. The duty of the tyres are distributed among all four tyres instead of just two. You extract more of the tyres grip levels by doing this. So theoretically, RWD cars should be faster than FWD.

Some RWD cars WILL NOT understeer backing into control if you let off the gas midway through a corner. This is true generally for Japanese cars though. A car like mine (large sloping front bonnet and short wheelbase) will snap oversteer if I let of the gas through a turn. I have spun out and broke a rear wheel spindle doing this! This was during a pretty hard corner going 60mph . . . probably a bit too fast for the car anyways.

GT4 is a realistic game but NOT perfect. There are many things I do in real life that I can't copy in the game because it modulates the steering input too much!

You know Initial D was created as a very exaggerated glorification of the AE86? That car was so slow and disrespected that some guys decided to glorify it in a cartoon as an underdog hero. It is still not very liked, but is begun to be rediscovered for its uniqueness. Some have even found a way to make the AE86 perform with the best of them! Now the cartoon isn't as glorified as once thought.

[Raven18940]

Personally, i believe the Mk1 MR2 (aka AW11) is far superior to both. With the supercharged engine, they really fly, and have simply gorgeous handling. I very nearly bought one of these instead of my peugeot. Lovely rear wheel drive, like a japanese elise.

Interesting, but a AW11 doesn't hold the road any better than an MX-5. It's a great little car, but not as amazing as it feels. That's definately a car I want to get to play around with.

I agree with what you saw about a good feeling car lets you get everything out of it. My saab is like that, not the fastest, but great feel and feedback.