Welcome to Garage419 on FinalGear

[darkshark0159]

I have a quick suggestion for this section of the forums: you should have a poll at the top of each episode's thread which allows people to rate the episode 1-10, just like the Top Gear section.

[argatoga]

Originally Posted by darkshark0159

I have a quick suggestion for this section of the forums: you should have a poll at the top of each episode's thread which allows people to rate the episode 1-10, just like the Top Gear section.

I'm all for it, but I think a 1-3 would be more useful.

[Rowdie]

Originally Posted by vette5885

You have to drive FWD differently - but that doesn't mean they're exempt from the sports car world.

Fifth gear compared the JDM Civic Type-RR against an S2000, and the Civic won - does that mean it's more of a sports car than the S2000?

On the other side - ever drive a Lexus SC430? That's two doors, RWD, 288HP - yet I can almost guarantee that my Civic Si is more fun to drive - dare I say, more of a sports car?

I would, as I've made clear, not consider any fwd car a sports car. Sporty? sure, they can be sporty, but a sports car? No.

So if you want to include fwd cars, how about a complete definition of what a sports car is then?

Won? what was the contest? I'd say, no that doesn't make it more of a sports car.

I drove a lexus SC, I believe it was before they had the 4.3 liter engine, sc400. I would not say that's a sports car. Seems like a Gran Touring car to me. Lots of luxury in there. Also has back seats.

So for that comparison to say which is closer to a sports car, the sporty economy car or the Gran touring convertible.... Without really testing them out I'd lean to the Si. Especially considering the Si is surely a manual and the SC is most likely an automatic.

[Rowdie]

Originally Posted by Elvis313

Another focus:

clearly not a sports car. because, it's a focus, you know.

I wouldn't call a Lancer a sports car while the evo clearly is. You have to differentiate

Well that's a rally car.

Evo, that's AWD correct? So, it's not out by my definition because it's fwd.

That noted. they're four doors, correct? Pretty nice usable rear seats? That sounds like a sports sedan to me.

[Rowdie]

Originally Posted by Holiace

In my opinion the Ford Focus RS is a very sporty car, yet not a sports car. Mazda MX-5 or Honda S2000 is a sports car and Ferraris Enzo is a supercar, not a sports car.

Win, Win, win.

Defining the cross over from sports car to super car could be interesting.

[MattFarah]

The Focus RS is faster than both the S2000 and the MX-5. So, by your definition, a sports car has to be Rear Wheel Drive? I disagree. I think a sports car can be front wheel drive, especially if the racing versions are front wheel drive as well, as in the Focus.

Also, Supercars are a sub-category within sports cars, not a separate category.

[Rowdie]

Originally Posted by MattFarah

The Focus RS is faster than both the S2000 and the MX-5. So, by your definition, a sports car has to be Rear Wheel Drive? I disagree. I think a sports car can be front wheel drive, especially if the racing versions are front wheel drive as well, as in the Focus.

Also, Supercars are a sub-category within sports cars, not a separate category.

Yeah, I'd certainly say by definition fwd is not a sports car. That's been the big point of contention about my definition of a sports car. One minor point, sports car doesn't have to be rwd it can be awd.

I'm sure there are muscle cars and even some fat sedans that are faster then a mx-5 as well. Out right speed does not make a sports car.

The split between a sports car and a super car would be tricky so saying it's a sub-group could be in order. Basically a very high end sports car = supercar. My only hesitation would be that judging by some the reactions to my definition, everyone wants to think they're in a sports car. So they've taken what I think should be a pretty specific classification and just blown it up to the point of being pretty much meaningless. Seems to me people would like sports car to mean anything that's sporty. My suggestion would be to use the terms we have, like sports sedan, GranTouring, Muscle, sport compact and such.

The progression would go something like... You have a race car add some luxury make it roadable and you're into a sports car. Seems you're roughly in line with that when you referred the the lotus Exige as a racecar. Then followed up with noting the elise is the roadcar version. To me that maps perfectly to the race car to sports car analogy. Take the sports car Add more luxury, a back seat of some sort and your into a Gran Touring car. Give it four doors and you're into a sports sedan.

I'm open for an example but I can't think of anyone that said, here's a piece of paper make me a sports car and the designer thought, "Okay we'll make it fwd and...."

Now they had cars that were fwd and someone said make it sporty, and then you ended up with a focus RS. I call that a sports compact or sporty economy. The FWD aspect was never driven by a the purpose of making a sports car. It was driven by economy.

In the episode you kept using the term pure. I think that's telling. Because the term sports car evidently has grown to encompass way too many vehicles. So we use pure to get back to what used to just be sports car. I say scrap that, let's get sports car back to a much smaller group.

Clearly there are going to be cars that are in between, is it a GT car or is it is sports car? But as far as fwd is concerned, I'm vetoing them out of the sports car club right along with four doors and cars that can't turn.

First guy with a vin diagram gets 100 internet bucks.

[killpanda]

Except in the case of the Focus RS, they ditched the AWD because it would make the car heavier, thus slower so it is FWD with clever front suspension because it makes it sportier, not cheaper.

Other example of your sport economy / sports car: My Fiesta is a "S" version, the "sport economy" version then. The "ST" in my view can be considered as the "sport car" version, the full banana with 2.0l of goodness.

And then you say: to be a sports car, it has to derive from a race car. Then the evo isn't a sports car. The WRC rally machine from Mitsubishi isn't an Evo, it's based on another model since a few years.

[argatoga]

Look up the M100 Lotus Elan.

[Rowdie]

Originally Posted by killpanda

Except in the case of the Focus RS, they ditched the AWD because it would make the car heavier, thus slower so it is FWD with clever front suspension because it makes it sportier, not cheaper.

Other example of your sport economy / sports car: My Fiesta is a "S" version, the "sport economy" version then. The "ST" in my view can be considered as the "sport car" version, the full banana with 2.0l of goodness.

And then you say: to be a sports car, it has to derive from a race car. Then the evo isn't a sports car. The WRC rally machine from Mitsubishi isn't an Evo, it's based on another model since a few years.

Well, the focus didn't start out as a race car. It's an economy car. When the Ford engineers got their marching order, it was economy car. Then they said we have this car now let's make it sporty.

I'm not a huge rally nut, but it seems to me there are classes. AWD cars do not compete in the same class as fwd cars, correct? So I would think going from awd to fwd was about a class change.

Also, I didn't say a sports car has to be derived from a race car. My take there was to so how cars might be classified along a line that went from race car to sports sedan and the points along that line where the classification would change. It wasn't meant to be a strick example. Clearly sports sedans don't often start out as race cars.

So I most certainly didn't say, you have to start with a race car to become a sports car. As far as I'm aware none of my prime examples for sports cars started out as race cars, MX-5, s2000, boxster.

As far as the evo is concerned, I'm pretty sure I classified that as a sports sedan. It has four doors and some nice usable rear seats, right? I'd say that's a very good example of a sports sedan. Move up to say an M5 and I'd add the additional qualifier of luxury. Thus it's a luxury sports sedan.

I'm no familiar with the fiesta ST but from what you've mention I think that should be called a sports compact. Fiesta is in the model that the focus replaced? Focus kind of covered the fiesta to the Tempo... ??

[Rowdie]

Originally Posted by argatoga

Look up the M100 Lotus Elan.

Sports compact and a rather sad end note to the original Elan that was an excellent sports car.

Notice the Miata, a real sports car rocked the world while the sports compact fronting as a sports car was by comparison an epic fail.

I think that rather supports my definition again, because if lotus can't make a viable sports car out of a fwd platform well then, let's just call them what they are, sports compacts.

Why fight it? Seems like an awfully good definition to me. What's wrong exactly with being a sports compact? We use the definitions I propose and everyone knows to a pretty granular degree what we're talking about.

As far as usable definitions, I haven't seen anyone come up with a better suggestion.


Maybe this should be more systematic. What are the categories?

Racecar, Track car? (basically a race car that's not been designed to fit into a current class of professional racing), Sports car, Sports compact, Gran Touring, Sports sedan, Supercar? Hypercar? Muscle car?

That should cover everything that's "sporty". A a minimum I'd say we need the groups that don't have a ? at the end.

I'm really not understanding the desire to get fwd cars into the sportscar group. Nothing wrong with being a sports compact. The difference in drive is certainly big enough to justify its own classification. Just like a second set of doors.

[argatoga]

Originally Posted by Rowdie

Sports compact and a rather sad end note to the original Elan that was an excellent sports car.

Notice the Miata, a real sports car rocked the world while the sports compact fronting as a sports car was by comparison an epic fail.

Not at all. But anyway I suggest we just drop this. Your narrow definition of a sports car seems to be limited to only yourself. You aren't making any converts, just moving this thread way off topic.

[Rowdie]

Originally Posted by argatoga

Not at all. But anyway I suggest we just drop this. Your narrow definition of a sports car seems to be limited to only yourself. You aren't making any converts, just moving this thread way off topic.

Yeah, a poor handling fwd ride that got crushed by a car a fraction of the price was a good way for the elan name plate to go out. I have to disagree.

I'm all for getting the discussion into the episode thread but this is the only place people were really posting. You might note I made that point at least once before.

You have a better working definition that's consistent with the range of terms we use to describe cars, I'd love to hear them. Please share.

If fun to ride is the definition of sports car, I have a friend that would like to put fat girls into the mix.

[falero]

cool site matt..you got some cool chit on youtube....