[02x08] September 18, 2011

[Ryotsu]

...aside from the ridiculous and unneeded addition of a symbol to the top of the car which speaks of a time in our past when about 10% of our current population (much higher in those days) was looked at as something less than human and could be bartered and sold as property. I saw the still above of the General Lee with the stars & bars (intentionally left non-capitalized) emblazoned across the top and cringed. It's an unnecessary symbol of a time we would all be better off remembering only as a dark point in our country's past and leaving it as that. To celebrate it is insulting not only to the aforementioned 10% of our population, but also to those who can see the symbolism it carries and can understand the distaste they may possess for it.

Saying that people who have a problem with it are racists is akin to calling the cities of Austin or San Francisco homophobic, or citing Israel as anti-Semitic. It's a poor comparison and one which raises many flags about your own beliefs and rationale behind posting. If you're going to argue with something, find some logic which will not make you look like a complete douche. As it stands, you're as misguided and ridiculous as the African-American in Asheville, North Carolina, who salutes the Confederacy every day, and I hope that other people in this forum will join me in chastising you for putting forth such a demeaning opinion.

I don't live in the south, but from what I've heard and seen, most people there see it as a symbol of state's rights. It was the flag of a rebel nation, which probably held great appeal for the Dukes of Hazard, not because they were racist, but because they too were rebels. It is associated with racism, yes, and I certainly think of it as something very closely related to racism, but a lot of people don't see it that way. I'm totally fine with the General Lee, seeing as the flag isn't there to represent white superiority, but rebelliousness instead. If that flag only flew as a symbol of racism, it would have been retired to the history museums long ago.

The vikings were cool, most people will agree. But most people will also agree that they were a bunch of thugs and serial rapists, which isn't cool. I'm not saying that the Confederacy was cool, but some people found the idea of a rebel nation somewhat romantic, even though they distain its racist policies.

 

[The Spie]

Please note: You're bitching about the flag on the roof, but not the name of the car? Presumably, it's not named after Lighthorse Harry Lee, so that leaves the fact that it's named after, let's face it, a de facto traitor, regardless of the pardon he received.

I should let this one go. I remember when I got into a similar argument years ago with a German who claimed that Georgy Zhukov was evil incarnate, and I came down hard on the side of hero. Guess it's a matter of what side you're on.

 

[nickgeorge25]

**SPOILER ALERT** Look what I just found from a simple google search! Someone has posted "behind-the-scenes" pictures of the three cars from this episode. I won't say here, but the pictures make it clear. See images 14-17.

http://www.zdnet.com/photos/a-ride-...6261647?seq=14&tag=photo-frame;get-photo-roto

 

[biggie]

Most proud Southerners see the Rebel flag as just being proud of being Southern, kind of like a State flag for a whole region. A lot of them would never associate the flag with race (whereas I believe that's the first thing Northerners think of).

 

[Gyvon]

Most proud Southerners see the Rebel flag as just being proud of being Southern, kind of like a State flag for a whole region. A lot of them would never associate the flag with race (whereas I believe that's the first thing Northerners think of).

Hit the nail on the head, basically.

 

[bryanbeachboy1970]

I should let this one go. I remember when I got into a similar argument years ago with a German who claimed that Georgy Zhukov was evil incarnate, and I came down hard on the side of hero. Guess it's a matter of what side you're on.

So, you're on the side of the Commies Spie?

 

[shellygrrl]

In Soviet Russia...

 

[Ryotsu]

Most proud Southerners see the Rebel flag as just being proud of being Southern, kind of like a State flag for a whole region. A lot of them would never associate the flag with race (whereas I believe that's the first thing Northerners think of).

Exactly what I was trying to say, but way more clear.

 

[t_simmers_jr]

Most proud Southerners see the Rebel flag as just being proud of being Southern, kind of like a State flag for a whole region. A lot of them would never associate the flag with race (whereas I believe that's the first thing Northerners think of).

Just like the Swastika is a symbol of German pride, a white hood and gown are symbols of Aryan pride, and a love of apartheid is simply a nostalgic bend for the good old days.

While I will fully agree that some people are far too sensitive, there's also something to be said for having respect enough to understand when something represents hate more strongly than it represents tradition.

 

[biggie]

Just like the Swastika is a symbol of German pride, a white hood and gown are symbols of Aryan pride, and a love of apartheid is simply a nostalgic bend for the good old days.

While I will fully agree that some people are far too sensitive, there's also something to be said for having respect enough to understand when something represents hate more strongly than it represents tradition.

To what I consider "normal" Southerners, the Rebel flag just doesn't relate to hate/race/slavery. They would be more apt to see it as a flag with beautiful southern girls, sweet tea, BBQ, and college football.

 

[t_simmers_jr]

To what I consider "normal" Southerners, the Rebel flag just doesn't relate to hate/race/slavery. They would be more apt to see it as a flag with beautiful southern girls, sweet tea, BBQ, and college football.

I never claimed that ignorance was not a strong part of the values of "normal" southerners...

 

[biggie]

I never claimed that ignorance was not a strong part of the values of "normal" southerners...

Just because someone chooses to take the good part of something and ignore the bad, doesn't make them ignorant, they may just be considered good people.

 

[Gyvon]

Just like the Swastika is a symbol of German pride

No, it's a Buddhist symbol

 

[t_simmers_jr]

Just because someone chooses to take the good part of something and ignore the bad, doesn't make them ignorant, they may just be considered good people.

You used the word "ignore" in your defense. I think that says everything which needs said.

No, it's a Buddhist symbol

It's image has been mirrored in the context I was using it, and I believe it's Native American, but you may be right on this latter part. However, given all the bad it has since adopted, it would be foolish for either culture to ask for it back.

 

[bryanbeachboy1970]

And weren't the Aryans a group of nomadic horsemen from the central Asian steppes?

You used the word "ignore" in your defense. I think that says everything which needs said.

Just as some people think the words "under God" shouldn't be part of the pledge of allegiance, thinking only of the bad parts of Christianity and ignoring the good?

Look, we can go around about this all day long (actually, I guess we have, and more besides). Simmers, you're looking at this through the moral eyes of our time. By your reasoning, we should also avoid pictures of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and other founding fathers because they were slave owners. Logically, we should also avoid Abraham Lincoln because he didn't give a shit about the slaves; he was perfectly content to keep black people in bondage as long as the union could continue.

I'm from Kansas, where the Civil War actually started well before 1861. My family were New England Free Staters who came here to basically keep those damn slave staters out. From reading journals of some family members of the time, and reading papers from then, NEITHER free staters nor slave staters actually cared about slaves, save for the most militant (John Brown, et al). It was simply to make Kansas either free or slave to preserve a certain bloc's power in Congress. Morality had almost nothing to do with it.

Sure, the Confederate Battle Flag has become a moral issue these days, and I agree that government bodies shouldn't display it, but saying that it represents hate is taking things too far. Simmers, while you denigrate the southerners for their 'ignorance', all you're really doing is expressing the historical imperialism of a northerner's POV, which is also ignorance. Basically, 'your' side won, you've retroactively decided that it was a moral victory against a great evil (which hardly anyone at the time considered it to be), and those who disagree are (at best) ignorant or (at worst) are perpetuating that evil. It's been 150 years, can we not move on?! As in, back to the topic?

And yeah, I know it's not just you who thinks that. Just because you have a club with meetings doesn't make it correct though.

So, we have the General Lee, a black Trans Am, and what else?

 

[t_simmers_jr]

Everything written above.

I'm an atheist with views which hover in the centrist realm on good days and border on anarchy on the bad days. Unfortunately, everything you just argued to solidify the argument against my impartiality I pretty much agree with completely, and I believe entirely that history is written by the winners and that many of our heroes are tainted, at best. I have no clubs, mostly because I have found society to be very intolerant of such organized logic which does not have a publication on which to base its preachings (and I'm in no kind of position/mood to be prophesizing).

But yeah, agree to disagree. Or agree to see the world in non-overlapping sections which allow for no common ground. Whichever appeases.

FWIW, though, if they're going to have the General Lee, then my earlier prediction of Herbie would just about fit. I'm not sure which other cars would be available to tangentially connect with an oppressive regime. Of course, maybe Hasselhoff's German connections will bode well in KITT, and we can move on to Chitty Chitty Bang Bang as the third possibility (Austrian, at one point, I believe).

 

[Gyvon]

One word: Eleanor

 

[bryanbeachboy1970]

One word: Eleanor

One word: UHH!

Classic Batmobile please!

 

[rdfox]

Oh, for christ's sake.

First off, THAT is not the Stars and Bars. THIS is the Stars and Bars:

The flag that you're ranting about is the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It's not a national flag; it's a *military* flag of one of the Confederate armies. It ended up being used as the primary battle flag of all Confederate forces because the Stars and Bars was too easily mistaken for the Stars and Stripes in the confusion of combat, resulting in friendly-fire incidents (on both sides!).

And even if you feel it's a racist emblem (as a battle flag, it's not--it's merely misused by a large percentage of the white supremacist movement, underlining their fundamental idiocy), the General Lee is a piece of American pop culture that should never be changed; the presence of the ANV battleflag is just a part of the car's appearance. Eliminating it would be as annoying to the majority of people as the blotting-out of various logos in background billboards on TGUS is to some, and a needless bow to the gods of Political Correctness--which is something that no version of Top Gear should EVER be seen doing.

How many people do you think the mere presence of the Bruce Bike pissed off during the filming of the Vietnam special? Probably about the same number, maybe more. Yet I don't see anyone screaming that it was horribly offensive...

 

[t_simmers_jr]

I hesitate to engage in this, due to the suspicion that there is no common ground to be gained, and thus no resolution to be had, but it IS directly relevant to TGA, this episode, and how the show will be viewed by a significant portion of the viewing audience...

The flag that you're ranting about is the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It's not a national flag; it's a *military* flag of one of the Confederate armies. It ended up being used as the primary battle flag of all Confederate forces because the Stars and Bars was too easily mistaken for the Stars and Stripes in the confusion of combat, resulting in friendly-fire incidents (on both sides!).

Fair enough, but the drivers of most gas-guzzling, unnecessary, raising-my-gas-prices-while-not-compensating-for-the-small-penis-of-the-operator pickups that have it emblazoned across their rear windows or flying proudly from their beds will likely refer to it as the "Stars and Bars." While I agree with the desire to be historically correct, I would want to have this conversation in a way in which they can understand me (and you pictures will undoubtedly help with that -- as would puppets singing songs which used small words and rhymed). It's noted, and hopefully, everyone who's mistaken will read your post and learn from it.

And even if you feel it's a racist emblem (as a battle flag, it's not--it's merely misused by a large percentage of the white supremacist movement, underlining their fundamental idiocy), the General Lee is a piece of American pop culture that should never be changed; the presence of the ANV battleflag is just a part of the car's appearance. Eliminating it would be as annoying to the majority of people as the blotting-out of various logos in background billboards on TGUS is to some, and a needless bow to the gods of Political Correctness--which is something that no version of Top Gear should EVER be seen doing.

This is a fine line, and I hate trying to deal with them in conversation where the two sides are so far apart, so I'll make this as succinct as possible: There is nothing to be gained by displaying the emblem in this episode. It serves no practical purpose, and is likely only to annoy and alienate viewers, not gain any more. The "proud" southerners who would be likely to view the flag as a symbol of their past would likely have already been attracted by the moonshine challenge and the three pick-up related challenges held so far. Given the number of cars which have appeared in our pop culture, the producers of the show -- and let's be honest, they had as much to do with the final decisions as the hosts did; this crap everyone's touting about how we're going to be able to see some of the hosts personality through this episode is only about half right -- had many more options to choose from which would have been just as interesting/nostalgic. This was a stupid/lame move on their part, in which they have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

How many people do you think the mere presence of the Bruce Bike pissed off during the filming of the Vietnam special? Probably about the same number, maybe more. Yet I don't see anyone screaming that it was horribly offensive...

I would venture to say quite a few of the Vietnamese were pissed off. They could have found something just as pathetic (though it may have been hard to top the scooter willingly used by Clarkson) to use as the dreaded back-up. I VERY often venture across the line of political correctness, but when I do, there is more to it than simply dragging out and re-airing embarrassing times in someone's past or just to get a cheap response for shock value. If there was a purpose behind the overly-"American" bike, it would have been fine, but there wasn't; it was there simply as an asshole move on the part of one of the presenters/producers/crew. The portion of that show where Richard talks to the deaf man on the beach was the redeeming portion. It served as a jab against Americans, but did so while also serving a practical purpose of how the entire mess that was the Vietnam War should be viewed from a historical context.

Also, I'm having a civilized conversation, not emoting "Oh for christ's sake" (sic; the lower-case use is especially nice) to begin a post. There's very little yelling about how it's offensive, just a lot of reprimanding for being shallow and unnecessarily callous. I work with juvenile delinquents, so I'm far to used to the display of this kind of brash disregard for others to begin yelling about it.