As much as some people hate bicyclists...

prizrak said:
As usual the narf misses the point ENTIRELY..... It is your responsibility to not put yourself in harm's way. This is not at all specific to driving/cycling/roads. This is a general life situation. Walking around a bad neighborhood with a wad of cache in your hand and a 30,000 Rolex will get you mugged. It's not RIGHT that you get mugged but you brought it upon yourself.
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Being in a large group of pedestrians or cyclists on the road is not putting yourself in harms way.
Being a douchbag in a car flooring it into a group of people is putting them in harms way.
 
narf said:
Being in a large group of pedestrians or cyclists on the road is not putting yourself in harms way.
Being a douchbag in a car flooring it into a group of people is putting them in harms way.
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Being in a large group of cyclists intent on actively disrupting traffic and ignoring regulations as a form of protest is putting yourself in harm's way. This does not in any way nullify your second statement.
 
thevictor390 said:
Being in a large group of cyclists intent on actively disrupting traffic and ignoring regulations as a form of protest is putting yourself in harm's way.
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In danger of some penalties, insults, a flying can or bottle? Yes.
In danger of getting killed? No.
 
narf said:
In danger of some penalties, insults, a flying can or bottle? Yes.
In danger of getting killed? No.
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No one was killed in the making of the video...
I'm kind of tired of explaining why pissing people off is a bad idea. I hope you never have to find out for yourself what can happen if you piss the wrong person of.
 
prizrak said:
No one was killed in the making of the video...
I'm kind of tired of explaining why pissing people off is a bad idea. I hope you never have to find out for yourself what can happen if you piss the wrong person of.
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But they certainly were in danger of getting killed.
Nobody said pissing people off is a good idea here. But it still does not mean that someone making an active protest deserves to killed, and to try and run them over like that, you don't have to be "the wrong person" who was pissed off, you have to be a god damned maniac that belongs in jail. He's not fit to be a member of society.
About your second statement I just don't know what to say... "pissing the wrong people off" means there's some "right" people who we can piss off? Who are these?
 
ut it still does not mean that someone making an active protest deserves to killed, and to try and run them over like that
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Did I ever say they deserved it?
belongs in jail. He's not fit to be a member of society.
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Did I ever argue that he doesn't?

You seem to be arguing against a point that was never made...
 
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TVR-161 said:
Hardly, The golf has a 61% Pedestrian safety rating. The odds where on their side.
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And on the basis of that video, a 100% Cyclist safety rating. :mrgreen:
 
"New Golf TDI. Runs over cyclists without killing them and still gets 60MPG"
 
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I don't think anyone actually found justification for the driver's actions, there's no way you can watch the video and say it wasn't cowardly. But all prizak was saying is the cyclists (or anyone for that matter) shouldn't be suprised that something like this happened.

Doesn't make it right, doesn't mean the guy shouldn't go to jail. It's just not surprising that someone went mental and ran over some Critical Mass cyclists, given the nature of what they were doing. Maybe they shouldn't have been protesting on the road, who knows? If someone hated them enough they probably wouldn't have been safe anywhere. :dunno: I'm sure people have been killed for less than what they were doing. Just chalk it up as another low moment of humanity and pray you won't be so unfortunate when you fight for something yourself.

mpicco said:
About your second statement I just don't know what to say... "pissing the wrong people off" means there's some "right" people who we can piss off? Who are these?
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Eh, some people are just more tolerant. Piss me off and at worst you'll get some harsh words. Piss off a loony in a black Golf and he tries to kill you. I think that's the comparison he was after.
 
I hear the prisons in Brazil are lovely this time of year.
 
"The new, limited edition, Golf Moses. Parts seas, sands and cyclists."
 
AiR said:
I hear the prisons in Brazil are lovely this time of year.
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Ha!

He is using the "I am bi-polar" card.
Also, people from the higher classes hardly do any jail time around here.
 
prizrak said:
I agree with you completely but as I had said earlier, you are responsible for your own safety. That includes expecting that in a large crowd of people one could be a psycho.
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So if you mildly annoy someone who responds with a wholly disproportionate amount of aggression, it's your fault because you should always be ready for crazy people? Sure, they'll be held accountable for it, but you should of seen it coming. Which lays part of the blame at your own feet. Is that what you're getting at?

prizrak said:
... but you brought it upon yourself.
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If one of these Critical Mass dickheads chunked a rock through the guys windshield then that individual rider could expect a violent response. As it was, they had no reasonable expectation of violence against them. Like narf said, tickets? Of course. Some jeers and maybe even a bottle or two thrown. But to be mowed down with a car? No. Most people don't live their lives expecting some crazy asshole to be waiting just around the corner, nor should they.

Like someone else said earlier in the thread, that sounds a whole lot like the "logic" fundamentalists use when they blame women for getting raped.

TVR-161 said:
Hardly, The golf has a 61% Pedestrian safety rating. The odds where on their side.
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61% of the time it works every time?
images
 
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So if you mildly annoy someone who responds with a wholly disproportionate amount of aggression, it's your fault because you should always be ready for crazy people? Sure, they'll be held accountable for it, but you should of seen it coming. Which lays part of the blame at your own feet. Is that what you're getting at?
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What I am getting at, and I'm getting pretty tired of trying to explain something that is really common sense, is that if you INTENTIONALLY piss*** people off you should expect a reaction. I am further getting at that in a large enough group of people a possibility of someone being crazy/violent/unbalanced approaches a 100%.

*** You might think it is mildly annoying, I would be absolutely furious in this particular situation. I wouldn't try to kill/hurt any of them (unless attacked) but I would not be mildly annoyed. This is the issue when it comes to people everyone has a different reaction.

Most people don't live their lives expecting some crazy asshole to be waiting just around the corner, nor should they.

Like someone else said earlier in the thread, that sounds a whole lot like the "logic" fundamentalists use when they blame women for getting raped.
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Reductio ad RETARDED in this case not even absurdum anymore....

You really don't understand how just going about your business not bothering anyone and getting attacked is different from INTENTIONALLY pissing people off?

Do you honestly not see how pissing off people who are all armed (a car is a very effective and easy to use anti-personnel weapon) is a bad idea? Would you come up to a bunch of guys with guns and call them "fags"?

I bet you think that calling every single person you see a moron is not a good idea because eventually you will get your ass beat (for something mildly annoying) is a bad idea. Why do you think that blocking the road and pissing off a bunch of motorists (and its been proven many times that many people are more aggressive behind the wheel than otherwise) is not a terrible idea?

Why do you think protest permits exist and protesters get police escorts if it takes place on the street? Here is a hint, it's not to protect general public in most cases...

Most people don't live their lives expecting some crazy asshole to be waiting just around the corner, nor should they.
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I was on the subway once, and there was a guy with a bicycle who put it against one of the polls that run vertically. When I was getting up from my seat I accidentally hit his pedal with my leg (subway cars aren't really spacious), there was no damage to the bike, it didn't fall, it didn't even really move. I turned around and apologized to the guy, the guy goes "watch where you are fucking going".

Another case, I was behind the guy on the train and the train moved and the guy ran into me (I have pretty decent balance so I don't move a whole lot). He proceeded to bitch me out for hitting him, obviously I told him to shut up. Dude started going nuts threatening me with just about every single bodily harm one could imagine. In fact he said he would suck my eyes out of their sockets. Turns out guy's mother died recently and his sister was in a hospital in terrible condition (that was interspersed with the threats somehow). So I apologized and said that I am very sorry for his loss and hope that his sister would turn out OK. He kind of calmed down a little bit and thanked me.

I had a dude trying to get into a fight with me because I was standing at the train car door right before my stop to get off the train. The door was closed and the dude started yelling how I'm blocking the door (you know the CLOSED door that I am going to walk through as soon as it opens).

Point of those stories? All people react differently, you could get into a fight for nothing more than bumping into someone on the street by accident (watch the Boondocks s1e4 for a very satirical portrayal of that). Keeping that in mind one should expect that pissing off a large number of people intentionally is likely to cause violence.
 
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mpicco said:
I do believe Critical Mass people, as well as any other protester, are aware that there are consequences to making a protest without following guidelines or whatever, but those consequences should come from the people who are assigned by us to uphold the order and the law. Not by someone who thinks he's Batman and decides to enforce his own perspective of justice.
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"should". Yes, it "should", but What if they don't. What if they come, like in this case, from a nutter?

It seems to me that too many people end up thinking that if something is wrong, then it won't happen, that if it something is right, then you can't be wronged and, more important for this discussion, that if someone points out that wrong things can happen no matter what, then it means he is saying they are right rather than wrong.

Please, stop for a moment everybody. When I started with a capital "THAT IMBECIL IS A CRIMINAL", just to put things clear straight away, I had my motives, and now it seems I was even too confident. I should have used bold, underlined and maybe even italic, just to make myself clear.

I don't want to defend the driver in any way, not even for a moment, I'm just saying that if you purposedly piss off someone which is way bigger than you and you get beaten up in return because he's a crazy a**e, you should expect people asking you why you behaved like a pr**k rather than solidarizing. Even if you should not have been beaten.

Drive around in a poor suburbs with a golden rolex out your window, and you might get robbed. Is it right? No. Should this happen? No. Does this happen? Yes. How will you deal with this possibility?

To give another example. Once I said to a very close friend of mine that when you are crossing a road, you should never get in the line of a car unless you are sure it's stopping. Not because you have not right to pass, but for safety. she said me: "on zebra crossings, I have right to pass, it's the car that has to stop". I said "of course, but what if the car doesn't stop? Who gets hurt? Avoid getting yourself in danger, if it's not necessary". Was I saying something wrong? I don't think so.

The fact is, bad things can happen. Take your responsibility in your hand, instead of believing the world "owes" you something. Those cyclists didn't accept the -possible- consequences of what they were doing. There are better ways to promote your lifestyle than going around pissing off people random people who can run you over if they are just a bit crazier than what you expect.

Life is not forced to agree with you, not even when you are right.

tigger said:
:lol: Have you seen a harvester?
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Yopu could use a thermonuclear bomb, if you could be sure not to harm anybody. Let's push the boundaries of imagination.
 
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Yopu could use a thermonuclear bomb, if you could be sure not to harm anybody. Let's push the boundaries of imagination.
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Well if the people you are nuking are from krypton probably wouldn't be a big deal :p
 
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