As much as some people hate bicyclists...

NecroJoe

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Of course, my disgust of the driver's actions has no abated, but I have come to understand that the bikes played a significant role in the overall situation.

Let's say I and my friends cut off the water supply for 3-4 hours in my neighborhood. It's not going to kill anyone, but will be an inconvenience and a discomfort for many. Then we walked the streets carrying buckets of water around, telling everyone we cut off the supply to teach them to conserve water. It would be silly to think I wasn't going to be confronted. We should be arrested and charged with every crime we commited. And, anyone who assaulted us in any way while we were out-and-about should also be punished to the extent of the law.
 

narf

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Of course, my disgust of the driver's actions has no abated, but I have come to understand that the bikes played a significant role in the overall situation.

Let's say I and my friends cut off the water supply for 3-4 hours in my neighborhood. It's not going to kill anyone, but will be an inconvenience and a discomfort for many. Then we walked the streets carrying buckets of water around, telling everyone we cut off the supply to teach them to conserve water. It would be silly to think I wasn't going to be confronted. We should be arrested and charged with every crime we commited. And, anyone who assaulted us in any way while we were out-and-about should also be punished to the extent of the law.
:nod:

However, you would not be responsible for the Texan mowing you down with his assault rifle.
 

thevictor390

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:nod:

However, you would not be responsible for the Texan mowing you down with his assault rifle.
Responsible, no, but you would need to understand that it is a risk of the action you would be taking (however remote). If you accept that risk and proceed, more power to you.
 
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NecroJoe

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:nod:

However, you would not be responsible for the Texan mowing you down with his assault rifle.
Responsible? Not totally. But there are going to be wars over water in the coming years/decades, so that guy is just ahead of the curve. :)

Honestly, I stepped away from this thread for a while, frankly offended. I've come to my own conlusions about it after some time, and I'm officially done with the thread. I think if i read anything else about it here, I'll end up killing myself.

And you'd all be responsible. ;)
 

equiraptor

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Of course, my disgust of the driver's actions has no abated, but I have come to understand that the bikes played a significant role in the overall situation.

Let's say I and my friends cut off the water supply for 3-4 hours in my neighborhood. It's not going to kill anyone, but will be an inconvenience and a discomfort for many. Then we walked the streets carrying buckets of water around, telling everyone we cut off the supply to teach them to conserve water. It would be silly to think I wasn't going to be confronted. We should be arrested and charged with every crime we commited. And, anyone who assaulted us in any way while we were out-and-about should also be punished to the extent of the law.
I like this analogy.

However, I think the Critical Mass people would claim it was the drivers who cut off the bicyclists' water. And that, IMO, is the true source of the issue. People, whatever their form of transportation, fail to understand that we need to share and take others needs and wants into consideration. It's like preschool, only on a much larger and more dangerous scale.
 

MadCat360

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Of course, my disgust of the driver's actions has no abated, but I have come to understand that the bikes played a significant role in the overall situation.

Let's say I and my friends cut off the water supply for 3-4 hours in my neighborhood. It's not going to kill anyone, but will be an inconvenience and a discomfort for many. Then we walked the streets carrying buckets of water around, telling everyone we cut off the supply to teach them to conserve water. It would be silly to think I wasn't going to be confronted. We should be arrested and charged with every crime we commited. And, anyone who assaulted us in any way while we were out-and-about should also be punished to the extent of the law.
That pretty much covers it.


Since the argument has become rather circular I'm inclined to agree with you.
I don't even think there is an argument. We all seem to be saying pretty much the same thing, just with different emotional implications.
 
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nist7

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Let me throw some more gasoline into this particular fire: One reason why I have little sympathy for the Critical Massholes is because, entirely aside from refusing to get permits or arranging with a city ahead of time to have a proper protest, they willfully and deliberately block police cars, ambulances and fire equipment - even ones with lights and siren going. Unless, of course, it's one of their own in trouble, then it's 'make a hole!' If it's not a Critical Masshole in trouble, too bad, the emergency response you need is stuck behind them, just to make a political point.
Wow...just wow.

The kids/assholes who do these Critical Mass events to raise awareness of bicycle safety are not much different than the Westboro Baptist Church protesting at soldiers' funerals to raise awareness of freedom of speech/expression. Sure both are despicable and highly hated idiots by the majority of the public, but you can't disagree with their basic message. Actually, it's questionable what exactly is the motive of these critical mass events. How do you deliver a message of safety and bicycle awareness when you act like total douches and in some cases actually commit traffic crimes? In the OP video the idiots took up both lanes. Nice going guys. Way to be curteous and respectable to the motorists on the road...you know the same thing that the Critical Massers apparently are also raising awareness for? There are plenty of cycling enthusiasts who HATE Critical Mass and boycott these self-righteous, obnoxious circle-jerks.

I love bicycling and love cyclists who obey rules of the road and give respect both ways. But these Friday Critical Mass events needs to be much better than they are. Apologies needs to come from both douche-bags. To say that the bicycle-riders were completely blameless is quite stupid....

Actually...what if this was an inside job? Something that was planned by the Critical Mass people themselves in order to rile up a huge reaction all over the world and draw sympathy votes to their cause? I mean no one was seriously injured and there just happened to be a HD camera recording at the time of the crash. We'll never know the truth but an interesting thought.

Also after the accident, they just leave all their wrecked shit in the middle of the road blocking 3+ lanes of traffic. Way to be a helpful and positive voice in the community.
 
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mpicco

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Also after the accident, they just leave all their wrecked shit in the middle of the road blocking 3+ lanes of traffic. Way to be a helpful and positive voice in the community.
Yes I usually get up, gather my bike and take it out the road if I'm laying on the pavement with a concussion and a broken rib when cars run over me. Traffic flow first!
 

mpicco

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SirEdward said:
mpicco said:
I have no association to CM nor do I ride a lot on my bike, but have you never been pissed off by some parade supporting some shit you don't give a damn about? I've lived in a major city for some years and sometimes I did want to throw a couple of cans on these people's heads.
There you are!

Luckily for you, and for them, you are like almost everyone and you can go on a big deal standing those kind of annoyances.

BUT! some people are different, they can't handle this and we have developed a word to describe them: crazy. What they will do is unpredictable. Everybody has to deal them. So, we have to take this into account when we plan our actions.
Well I disagree, I shouldn't have to worry about maniacs if I wanna protest whatever I believe should be protested. I am not gonna live my life in fear. As I said before, "he had it coming" is completely subjective to the one doing the aggression and wearing a bathing suit in some places will get you stoned to death so fuck that, I'm gonna live my life.
 

SirEdward

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Well I disagree, I shouldn't have to worry about maniacs if I wanna protest whatever I believe should be protested.
You are right, you shouldn't have to, but you will have to anyway.

I am not gonna live my life in fear. As I said before, "he had it coming" is completely subjective to the one doing the aggression and wearing a bathing suit in some places will get you stoned to death so fuck that, I'm gonna live my life.
I say (seriously) go on and live it. Do something gutsy and I'll respect you, do something stupid and I will tell you. You can do it anyway, because it's your life and you are free to -choose- whatever you want, but that won't make the next crazy driver to your bike disappear in a mist of righteous indignation. Because he is free to choose too, and free to choose wrong, if he wants, free to act stupidly and violently. Law will condemn him rather than you (which is something we should be grateful for, nowadays) but he will have done it nonetheless, so if there is a way for you to do what you want while avoiding provoking his crazyness (as crazy as can be), then I think you should choose that way.

So my advice is: if you want to protest, try to protest in the way that will get you the more support and the less contrast possible. It's smarter. And when you choose your actions, be aware of what might be the consequences of what you do. The difference between courage and stupidity is that.
 
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prizrak

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Yes I usually get up, gather my bike and take it out the road if I'm laying on the pavement with a concussion and a broken rib when cars run over me. Traffic flow first!
I believe he is referring to the rest of the cyclists so you know emergency vehicles could get through and help their "comrades", something that a friend of mine pointed out as well (for the record she is very pro cycling and thought it was absolutely horrific)
 
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MacGuffin

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I once said to a cyclist, who complained about car drivers and how inconsiderate they were towards cyclists:

"Yes, you are the ones who don't pollute the air, you are the ones who don't waste the resources of the Earth. You are the morally superior ones. You have the same rights in traffic, as a car or bus or truck.

All true. All noted.

But your nose is your crumple zone. So the statement 'I was right and morally superior' is of no benefit for you, when it's written on your gravestone. Better don't push your luck and stay passive."
 
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prizrak

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I once said to a cyclist, who complained about car drivers and how inconsiderate they were towards cyclists:

"Yes, you are the ones who don't pollute the air, you are the ones who don't waste the resources of the Earth. You are the morally superior ones. You have the same rights in traffic, as a car or bus or truck.

All true. All noted.

But your nose is your crumple zone. So the statement 'I was right and morally superior' is of no benefit for you, when it's written on your gravestone. Better don't push your luck and stay passive."
I understand now... it was YOU driving that Golf and then you framed some poor Brazillian!!!!! :D
 

MacGuffin

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I have an alibi for that day :p

But seriously: The few times I nearly crashed into a cyclist, they were igoring any traffic rules and obviously had completely abandoned their survival instincts.

Last night for example. I turned into my street, seeing a cyclist with the lights on on the cycle path next to me. "Bravo!", I thought, "one guy with his brains on", as I stopped to let him pass. But I nearly ran over the other two cyclists behind him with no lights on.

Yeah, must be enough, when in a group of three only one cyclist has his lights on :rolleyes:
 
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katwalk

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I haven't nearly crashed into cyclists, but pedestrians on the same "I have right of way in a crosswalk I don't have to look first" constantly. Right of way, I would like to introduce you to stopping distance. If you step in front of even a slow moving car which is a meter or less away the magic crosswalk will not save you.
In the same vein I recently was crossing the street, had a car slow down with the driver looking right at me, I step into the crosswalk and the drive right through right in front of me despite making eye contact and slowing down. NEVER ASSUME THE CAR WILL STOP UNTIL IT DOES. EVER. Being right isn't worth being dead.
 

MacGuffin

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Well, traffic law here says, that you have to actively check for any potential pedestrians, who might want to cross the street and adjust your speed to be able to stop in time, when you near a zebra crossing. And if for example a van blocks the view, you have to slow down enough to be sure you won't run over any pedestrian, who steps on the road from behind that van.

It's pretty much a lose-lose situation for the car driver,if something happens. But I respect the fact, that pedestrians have right of way at zebra crossing under all circumstancs, that they need special protection (since most of them are children and old ladies with a shopping bag) and that you cannot talk yourself out of it, when you run one over. Fair enough. It's the rules of the game.

Things are different with cyclists, though, because they do not have right of way at a zebra crossing, unless they dismount and push their bicycle across. But almost every day I see a cyclist coming from a side street, riding over a zebra crossing at 30 km/h or something without even looking.
 
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