Bin Laden dead

nomix

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My view on the subject is pretty simple after all is said and done. I totally agree with Nomix but I think interrogation is more fitting. IMO a trial is only nescessary when the accused might have a chance at innocence. In the case of someone like Bin laden they should be put to death regardless. It would have been nice to bring him in alive though, as risky as it may have been.
If we know he's guilty, what the hell is the problem doing it properly? It's like redoing your bathroom without putting in a membrane. Yeah, it's cheaper there and then, but give it a couple of years, with smoldering plaster, and you'd wish you'd done it properly the first time.

We know he's guilty. So we put him on trial. Then we show the world that we're superior for doing it the right way, and not getting carried away with anger and blood lust. There comes a day when history will judge us. Churchill said history would justify him, cause he intended writing it himself. But truth still catches up with him.

Listen, it's not that I like him any more than the rest of you. But if the premise is that is safely in custody, why disregard the system when the cost of doing it properly is insignifcant at worst?
 

argatoga

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My view on the subject is pretty simple after all is said and done. I totally agree with Nomix but I think interrogation is more fitting. IMO a trial is only nescessary when the accused might have a chance at innocence. In the case of someone like Bin laden they should be put to death regardless. It would have been nice to bring him in alive though, as risky as it may have been.
Where do you draw the line on this though?
 

Night_Hawk

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I see what you're saying and I agree, but when you think about the vast majority of people who don't follow current events beyond the headlines it's easier to eliminate the threat than to risk more precious lives bringing it across the world for some proper dealing with.

In general the american population is glad to see him dead. I'm willing to bet people would complain endlessly if they brought him back sucessfully at the cost of a few American soliders. it doesn't always make sense but it's the way a lot of people react.

Not trying to forcefully change the subject but right now I'm more concerned Pakistan probably knew he was there the whole time. As far as I can tell that's potentially dangerous news.
 

Night_Hawk

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my computer is worthless. I just replied but now it's gone. sorry i gotta bail out of the discussion

- EDIT - nevermind my computer is fucked but apparently my post was posted.

I wasn't prepared to answer this but I would generally draw the line when it becomes obvious to everyone that the accused is a person who casually kills many people. And doesn't deny it.
 
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argatoga

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my computer is worthless. I just replied but now it's gone. sorry i gotta bail out of the discussion

- EDIT - nevermind my computer is fucked but apparently my post was posted.

I wasn't prepared to answer this but I would generally draw the line when it becomes obvious to everyone that the accused is a person who casually kills many people. And doesn't deny it.
You pretty much described the U.S. right there.
 

cmb1981

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Not sure if this has been touched on, as I haven't bothered to read the entire thread, but do the good folks of finalgear view OBL as a criminal/mass murderer, or as a general leading an army(al-Qaeda) currently at war with the United States of America.
 

SpitfireMK461

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Even if you believe, the latter, you have to take the former as true as well. Civilians not connected with engagements are not viable targets of war. Nor does AQ have anything to support them under the tenants of just cause. They are mass murders no matter how one views it.
 

cmb1981

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Even if you believe, the latter, you have to take the former as true as well. Civilians not connected with engagements are not viable targets of war. Nor does AQ have anything to support them under the tenants of just cause. They are mass murders no matter how one views it.
I should have been more concise...I wasn't defending the tactics employed by Osama bin Laden/al Qaeda, merely pondering on the difference between killing a general on the battlefield and executing a criminal in the pursuit of justice.
 

nomix

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I see what you're saying and I agree, but when you think about the vast majority of people who don't follow current events beyond the headlines it's easier to eliminate the threat than to risk more precious lives bringing it across the world for some proper dealing with.

In general the american population is glad to see him dead. I'm willing to bet people would complain endlessly if they brought him back sucessfully at the cost of a few American soliders. it doesn't always make sense but it's the way a lot of people react.
I'm glad to see him dead. But these damned idiots think they're special. Let's show'em they're not. Fucking hell, we're treating them like they're the biggest bloody danger in the world, we're pretending like they're so damn special.

Bin Laden didn't deserve special treathment.

Not trying to forcefully change the subject but right now I'm more concerned Pakistan probably knew he was there the whole time. As far as I can tell that's potentially dangerous news.
I'm sure there were lots of people in the ISS who knew. But they've probably known for more than a decade.

Not sure if this has been touched on, as I haven't bothered to read the entire thread, but do the good folks of finalgear view OBL as a criminal/mass murderer, or as a general leading an army(al-Qaeda) currently at war with the United States of America.
He was both, plus lots more. More than anything, he was a criminal.
 

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The truth is, that Al-Quaida (or however it is spelled anywhere in the world) has been on the way down for some time anyway.

A while back ago I wrote, that they now officially killed more muslims in muslim countries, than people in the 9/11 attack. Al Quaida is no longer directing its hate towards the west exclusively, it went into the same trap all terrorist organisations fall into sooner or later: Becoming an enemy to those who's interest's you were actually "fighting" for.

It happened to the IRA, to the ETA and of course the German RAF. At some point down the road they lose support, because those who have brains enough to think and can reflect on what they're doing, will sooner or later realize, that they're achieving absolutely nothing and turn their back on terrorism. Those who remain, are radical pigheads, who repel most of their sympathizers.

The last big terror attack by Al-Quaida on European or American ground was how long ago? Obviously the Western countries are currently able to prevent attacks, while they are still in the planning phase. I'm not a fan of the measures taken after 9/11 (I agree, they set unacceptable limits to liberty and privacy) but at least the secret services and police forces of the world now seem to do their job better in finding and disarming sleepers, than prior to 9/11.

There is lots of talk and fear about the "next big terror attack" but somehow it is never coming. If it is coming, I believe, it won't be Al-Quaida but coming from somewhere else.

Besides, Al-Quaida's targets now seem to be their "muslim brothers" in Pakistan and other muslim countries in the first place, as the current attack on a building of the Pakistan border police shows.

And that isn't going to get them any new fans among young people -- especially since half of the muslim world is currently in an uproar and a fight for freedom and democracy.

There is an interesting thing one of the experts said on TV here the other day. It was a German doctor from Pakistan, I think, who observed students, who return from studying in Europe and America.

He said, that those "sleepers", young muslim students, who study at universities in Western countries and get radicalized there and starting to hate the western culture, are almost exclusively majoring in technical subjects, engineering mostly.

Because those are the subjects, where they can still maintain their fundamental islamic views without getting into contact or opening up to our liberal western views and values. They even might radicalize more during their studying, because without any real exchange with Western society, they tend to see our culture as depraved and decadent.

But as soon as a young student from a muslim country studies humanities, like political science, philosophy, art history, etc., they stop being radicalized, adapt to our western culture much better and absorb its values.

Anyway.

About Bin Laden: So he's dead. I don't know, if it was right or wrong to kill him just like that. All I know is, that it should have happend 10 years ago. Then it would have made a big difference. Maybe it would have prevented the war in Iraq back then and would have made it easier to pacify Afghanistan, I don't know.

But his killing now will probably go into history as a footnote, I think.

It's good he is no more, though, because whoever now takes over the seat from him, will have to live with the certainty, that if anythng bad happens under his rulership, he will be the new #1 target on the American death list. And it's also bad for Al-Quaida, because I doubt they will be able to find such a charismatic leader again.
 
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Gyvon

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Not sure if this has been touched on, as I haven't bothered to read the entire thread, but do the good folks of finalgear view OBL as a criminal/mass murderer, or as a general leading an army(al-Qaeda) currently at war with the United States of America.
Both. The two are not mutually exclusive.
 

GRtak

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http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/porn-found-osama-bin-laden-evidence-trove/story?id=13599025

Porn Found in Osama Bin Laden Evidence Trove

A stash of pornography was found among the trove of evidence seized from Osama bin Laden's Abbottabad compound by U.S. Navy SEALs, according to a report confirmed by ABC News.

The existence of the pornography stash, which one U.S. official told ABC News was "huge," was first reported by Reuters. The official said the pornographic material was found in a wooden box in bin Laden's bedroom and included electronically recorded videos.

Though bin Laden's compound did not have an internet connection or other hard-wired networks, a video recovered by the SEALs and publicized by the White House showed bin Laden watching himself on a television while inside the compound, suggesting those in the compound could play back videos.

The discovery of the pornographic videos is just the latest in a steady stream of information gleaned from evidence obtained by the SEALs during the mission that killed bin Laden nearly two weeks ago, from invaluable intelligence on al Qaeda operations to embarrassing personal revelations about the terror leader. Officials are analyzing one million pages of data recovered and said they've learned more about al Qaeda in the past ten days than in the last ten years combined.

The cache of electronic and handwritten materials includes numerous hallmark al Qaeda plots including attacks on infrastructure targets such as water supply and transportation including rail and air, in what one official described as a "strategic guide for how to attack the U.S." Recently, officials said the al Qaeda leader wanted to find a way to kill President Obama and had aspired to attack the U.S. rail system.

A "professional journal" apparently handwritten by bin Laden also revealed that he encouraged attacks against smaller cities in the U.S. and was in communication with the Yemeni branch of al Qaeda, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, which U.S. officials have recently described as the greatest threat to America. The al Qaeda leader even allegedly tallied how many American lives it would cost to force a U.S. withdrawal from the Arab world, according to officials cited in the AP report.
 

Gyvon

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I just imagined a bunch of hardened (Mind. Gutter. OUT!) SEALs giggling over the mountain of porn they found.
 

calvinhobbes

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Bin Laden and Porn - how does that work then?
The same as with al-Zawahiri and all those other

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wankers
- preach hatred, let others do the dirty "work", practice what you preach hatred against.
 

nomix

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Some of the largest and most expensive collections of scottish single malt whisky is in Saudi Arabia, drunken by wahabbist hypocrits with good taste.

:)
 

nomix

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Bresjnev preferred duck kebabs.
 

Heathrow

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I LOL'd at the pronstash. :lol:

Serious thought, I am thinking that revealing this information could just be some mis-information as part of PsyOps or "Black Propaganda". Good move by the CIA or whoever made it up if it is BS.
Create uncertainty, fear and doubt in the mind of your enemy.

Hmm, who knows!

:think:
 

GRtak

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Conservative group sues over bin Laden death photos

Washington (CNN) -- A conservative legal watchdog group has filed the first lawsuit seeking public release of video and photographs of the U.S. military raid and aftermath that left al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden dead.

Judicial Watch is asking the Department of Defense to comply with a Freedom of Information request for the material, especially photos of the September 11 mastermind lying dead on the third floor of his Pakistan hideout. The legal complaint to force compliance was made in federal court in Washington on Friday.

The group says it is being "irreparably harmed" by the Obama administration's "unlawful withholding of requested records."

Judicial Watch made its initial request the day after the commando assault by Navy SEALs. A similar request for material was filed against the CIA.

President Barack Obama had announced that the U.S. government would not reveal any photographs of the May 2 military action and bin Laden's subsequent burial at sea. Some members of Congress have been allowed to privately view the materials this week.

Some al Qaeda-affiliated leaders, along with domestic and foreign websites and blogs, have questioned whether bin Laden was really killed and whether the details of his death released by the administration were accurate.

A May 9 letter from the Pentagon to Judicial Watch -- mentioned in the legal complaint -- stated, "At this time, we are unable to make a release determination on your request within the 20-day statutory time period" required by federal law. The legal group had the option of filing an administrative appeal directly with the Defense Department, rather than going for a lawsuit.

"The American people have a right to know, by law, basic information about the killing of Osama bin Laden," Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton said. "Incredibly, the Obama administration told us that it has no plans to comply with the Freedom of Information law, so we must now go to court. President Obama's not wanting to 'spike the football' is not a lawful basis for withholding government documents. This historic lawsuit should remind the Obama administration that it is not above the law."

Obama had barred any public release of photos or video, telling CBS News, "It is important to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head are not floating around as an incitement to additional violence or as a propaganda tool." He added, "We don't trot this stuff out as trophies. We don't need to spike the football."

Judicial Watch calls itself a "a conservative, nonpartisan educational foundation (promoting) transparency, accountability and integrity in government, politics and the law."

The case is Judicial Watch v. U.S. Department of Defense (1:11-cv-00890).
 
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