Daimler and Linde AG join forces to set on the introduction of hydrogen cars

MacGuffin

Forum Addict
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
8,329
Location
Wilhelmshaven, Germany
Car(s)
'17 Ford Mustang GT Fastback
Daimler Teams With Linde to Build 20 Hydrogen Fuel Stations

By Chris Reiter -Wed Jun 01 17:45:59 GMT 2011

Daimler AG (DAI), the maker of Mercedes- Benz cars, will team up with industrial gases producer Linde AG (LIN) to build 20 hydrogen fuel stations in German cities as the companies promote the use of the element to power automobiles.

The investment of more than 10 million euros ($14 million) split between Daimler and Linde will establish stations in Berlin, Hamburg and Stuttgart over the next three years, the companies said today in a joint statement. The plan will more than triple the number of publicly accessible hydrogen stations in Germany, of which there are currently seven.

Daimler completed a round-the-world trip today with three B-Class compacts powered by fuel cells, which use hydrogen to generate electricity from the chemical reaction that creates water. Mercedes will start large-scale production of fuel-cell cars in 2014, Daimler Chief Executive Officer Dieter Zetsche said at an event in Stuttgart, where the company is based.

A typical hydrogen station costs from 1 million euros to 1.5 million euros to set up, according to Munich-based Linde, the world?s second-biggest maker of industrial gases.

Fuel-cell vehicles, which can travel farther and refuel quicker than battery-powered cars, have been hampered by the difficulty of storing and moving hydrogen, and by the cost of manufacturing membranes that capture the electron in the reaction. Daimler has said it has invested more than 1 billion euros in fuel-cell technology.

Price, Range

Daimler is leasing the B-Class F-CELL vehicles for 950 euros a month for 36 months. The company offers lease rates on the conventional model for 325 euros. The manufacturer plans to build 200 B-Class F-CELLs and will deliver about 30 fuel-cell buses to Hamburg?s public transit system.

The current B-Class version sandwiches the equipment under the floor and, unlike past models, can start in freezing temperatures. The B-Class F-CELL has a range of about 400 kilometers (249 miles) on a full tank, more than double the Nissan Leaf?s average of 100 miles.

The Mercedes-Benz maker, which produced its first vehicle using the technology in 1994, owns a majority stake in Automotive Fuel Cell Corp., a joint venture with Ford Motor Co. (F) and Ballard Power Systems Inc. Other automakers are also active in fuel-cell research. Honda Motor Co. leases FCX Clarity sedans to Los Angeles-area drivers.

Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...linde-to-build-20-hydrogen-fuel-stations.html (picked rather randomly by me after a Google search in English)


It's a start.

Linde AG is the world's 2nd largest distributor of industrial gases. And it's current CEO Wolfgang Reitzle might be known to car-buffs for his work at BMW and Ford (where he was responsible for Jaguar, Aston Martin, Volvo, Land Rover, Lincoln and Mercury). So he can be considerd a petrolhead.

To ensure a nationwide supply, though, about 1000 stations have to be build.

But it's a start.
 
I applaud this whole heartedly. Sadly it comes back to the thread about Germany shutting down it's nuclear power capability. We need a billion metric fuck tonnes of electricity to avail ourselves of the hydrogen that we have available.

I firmly believe that fuel cells rather than batteries or hybrids are the long term future of personal transportation. We just need a cheap, clean, reliable way of generating the power to get at the hydrogen. Once we have that one cracked the world is our oyster. And we can save all the remaining oil to run awesome stuff for recreation, motorsports and keeping our automotive history on the road.
 
The advantage of gas is, though, that you don't have to produce it here. You can transport it in liquid form with ships:
800px-LNG-carrier.Galea.wmt.jpg


I wrote long ago in another topic (dunno where anymore), that it wouldn't be the worst idea for the sheikhs to invest into solar energy and build massive hydrogen plants at their seasides.

I mean seriously: What on earth hinders us to use the already existing paths we use for the oil to produce and transport hydrogen? It doesn't even have to be refined!
 
Last edited:
Wait Germans and hydrogen? Didn't it end badly last time it was tried? :troll:
 
Wait Germans and hydrogen? Didn't it end badly last time it was tried? :troll:

Actually that happened while landing in America :p
 
  • Like
Reactions: MWF
Wait Germans and hydrogen? Didn't it end badly last time it was tried? :troll:

Huge%20Manatee.jpg


Seriously MacGuffin, you make a great point. The Gulf has plentiul sunshine and a lengthy coastline. Shame we'd still be beholden to the fucking A-Rabs.

Could be a handy way for Greece, Portugal and possibly Spain to dig their way out of their financial crises.
 
The advantage of gas is, though, that you don't have to produce it here. You can transport it in liquid form with ships:
800px-LNG-carrier.Galea.wmt.jpg


I wrote long ago in another topic (dunno where anymore), that it wouldn't be the worst idea for the sheikhs to invest into solar energy and build massive hydrogen plants at their seasides.

I mean seriously: What on earth hinders us to use the already existing paths we use for the oil to produce and transport hydrogen? It doesn't even have to be refined!

Carrying Hydrogen in liquid form is much, much harder than carrying liquid natural gas.
 
Okay, a pipeline then. As MWF said: Could be an idea for Greece, Portugal or Spain. Or even for the countries of the Maghreb.
 
Natural gas can be used directly in a natural gas fuel cell. A natural gas fuel cell has a much higher operating temperature than a hydrogen fuel cell (I knew the exact numbers, but I read about this 3 years ago so please forgive me if I don't remember), but you still get more efficiency than you would using an ICE. Natural gas could be cheaper and would make a lot more sense for the time being. So what, it's not a completely renewable energy source. It's not as though we don't already use fossil fuels in greater quantity than we would if cars started using natural gas fuel cells.
 
Pipelines are much more viable. Transporting natural gas in its liquid form has only recently become financially viable due to increased oil/gas prices. That only needs to be chilled to 110K, Hydrogen needs 20K.
 
In the US, there are already a large number of natural gas pipelines going to many homes and businesses. Is the same true in Europe?
 
I really don't understand the industry obsession with hydrogen. At the moment, it looks as though natural gas fuel cells are cheaper to produce and natural gas is easier to obtain for use on a large scale. Hydrogen does have the potential to be better for the environment, but the cost will be much greater and the widescale infrastructure for it is not already in place. Natural gas fuel cells used in vehicles have the potential to make an FCEV affordable and usable.
 
Psst: Hydrogen comes from fossil fuels right now. Until you create vast amounts of electricity to be used to turn water into hydrogen, then you're just exchanging one fossil fuel for another. And even when you're making it from water, you're using still using hydrogen essentially as a battery -- energy to turn water into hydrogen, get some of it back to power the car when it turns to water. Why not skip the whole hydrogen step and use that electricity directly to power the car via batteries? Sure, current batteries are mediocre, but give it some time. Look at how much batteries have improved over recent years and push that trend into the future.

Hydrogen is a dead end technology.
 
Last edited:
Batteries have one major flaw, charging. Filling up your car with liquid/gaseous energy is much, much quicker.

Yep, currently most Hydrogen comes from fossil fuels. The idea is to set up electricity plants such as solar in regions with lots of space and sun, convert to hydrogen there, pipeline it here, fill up cars, :burnrubber:
That's a hypothetical idea obviously, :dunno: if it could ever be financially viable though. Until that day comes we need to work on the surrounding technology, and fossil-sourced hydrogen helps along that route.
It's basically chicken and egg - you won't build sustainable hydrogen production facilities without the distribution network or the cars, you won't build the distribution network without ...



Also, many people say batteries are a dead end technology.
 
Actually that happened while landing in America :p
In that case they need to make sure they don't sell those cars here :)
Psst: Hydrogen comes from fossil fuels right now. Until you create vast amounts of electricity to be used to turn water into hydrogen, then you're just exchanging one fossil fuel for another.
I believe it was posted on this forum at some point in time but there is tech to get hydrogen out of urine in sewage water. It requires much less energy (something on the order of 70% less IIRC), it would require a bit more equipment at the sewage treatment plant and can pretty much be produced today.

Also cleaning up one big smoke stack is quite a bit easier than a million others.
Sure, current batteries are mediocre, but give it some time. Look at how much batteries have improved over recent years and push that trend into the future.
Batteries have not improved much over the recent years, what has improved is power efficiency of what we use the batteries for. For instance cell phone and laptop batteries have not changed their capacity very drastically in the past decade but we have figured out a way to do more with less power instead.
 
Last edited:
Batteries may be able to do what we need one day. As of today they don't give us enough range to be a viable alternative to the internal combustion engine. I see the natural gas fuel cell as being a stepping stone into hydrogen fuel cell technology. If we are able to develop a sustainable hydrogen infrastructure, where hydrogen comes from renewable energy sources, hydrogen will be the best alternative fuel available.

The infrastructure for natural gas already exists, natural gas fuel cells are cheaper to construct and natural gas fuel cell technology could be made modular in order to ease the transition into hydrogen fuel cell powered EVs.
 
For natural gas you might as well use existing ICEs. As of right now that is the cheaper alternative.
 
Top