Do you heel-toe on the street?

[Pry]

I do it on spirited driving when I want to be in the correct gear getting out of a corner. Rarely on a city traffic though.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Every damn day. It's probably ridiculous...but unless I'm coming to a complete stop, I pretty much heel-toe whenever i'm decelerating. It's a little tricky with my inconsistent e-throttle but feels rewarding when I get it right. Obviously, it's much more fun when I'm attacking a good road, but it's kinda fun coming off the highway too. I actually find it's much easier during aggressive driving, but that might be because the ECU knows that I'm driving hard and amps up the throttle response, but that's just my suspicion.

 

[mpicco]

I wanted to vote for "I sometimes if the situation requires it", but the closest was "yes" so picked that. Usually if I have to slow down very fast for some reason.

 

[narf]

Usually if I have to slow down very fast for some reason.

Mashing the brake pedal usually works best for me in such a situation

 

[equiraptor]

Mashing the brake pedal usually works best for me in such a situation

Aye. Unless your brake system is very old (think 1950s design), the brakes have more grip than the tires. Braking alone will give you your maximum stopping ability. Downshifting only adds potential for human error and potential to reduce the stopping - increase the stopping distance.

 

[mpicco]

I can tell neither of you live in mountainous areas where after some braking it's quite nice to be in a low gear going downhill rather than risking a lock up in a very non-straight road...

Also almost 20 year old french econo-city-car with a worn out clutch disk and a very light weight flywheel, it's almost necessary to blip the engine to have a smooth change...

 

[equiraptor]

I can tell neither of you live in mountainous areas where after some braking it's quite nice to be in a low gear going downhill rather than risking a lock up in a very non-straight road...

I can tell you didn't read what I actually said. You're describing a different condition from panic braking, needing your maximum stopping (which is what I was talking about, as made clear by my statement). If you want compression braking to help prevent acceleration, go ahead and downshift. But don't think downshifting adds slowing in a threshold braking situation (barring mechanical issues). It doesn't.

 

[mpicco]

What many people are taught and do instinctively is slam both the brakes and the clutch in...
On some situations like bad road conditions and surfaces, I'd be willing to bet downshifting slows a car down more safely than that, specially with no ABS and the risk of locking up (which also removes the ability to steer).

 

[GraemeH]

"Slamming" and "mashing" are bad adjectives to use here since it implies not holding the decellerative force applied to the wheels by the brakes at the threshold of the tyres' longitudinal grip... It implies you're just mongo-ing it and locking, or relying on ABS.

But yeah when you're threshold braking anyway, applying additional decellerative force to the wheels from engine braking isn't going to make you slow down any faster, the tyres are already at their limit.

 

[narf]

I can tell neither of you live in mountainous areas where after some braking it's quite nice to be in a low gear going downhill rather than risking a lock up in a very non-straight road...

Also almost 20 year old french econo-city-car with a worn out clutch disk and a very light weight flywheel, it's almost necessary to blip the engine to have a smooth change...

I just came back from a 3800km roadtrip to the Alps, with millions of downshifts, speeding up in first despite zero throttle, ... And yet, when a lorry comes the other way taking half your lane I mashed the brakes instead of fumbling with the nonflappy paddles.

Aye. Unless your brake system is very old (think 1950s design), the brakes have more grip than the tires. Braking alone will give you your maximum stopping ability. Downshifting only adds potential for human error and potential to reduce the stopping - increase the stopping distance.

...and in a 1950s designed car chances are your rubber sucks as well :lol: just look at all the Russian crash video Ladas.

"Slamming" and "mashing" are bad adjectives to use here since it implies not holding the decellerative force applied to the wheels by the brakes at the threshold of the tyres' longitudinal grip... It implies you're just mongo-ing it and locking, or relying on ABS.

But yeah when you're threshold braking anyway, applying additional decellerative force to the wheels from engine braking isn't going to make you slow down any faster, the tyres are already at their limit.

In regular daily driving in fairly modern cars "slamming" and "mashing" is the best thing to do on average. Sure, you may be awesome, but the vast majority will do a worse job than their ABS - and that includes the vast majority on FG. In my case, I'd say my cars do a better job than anyone driving them on many surfaces because while you have only one brake pedal to modulate the car has four independent pedals and can adapt to varying grip levels for each wheel, providing not only maximum stopping power but also control.

 

[mpicco]

I don't have ABS

Anyway I'm not in the mood for Narf's pedantic personality.

 

[equiraptor]

What many people are taught and do instinctively is slam both the brakes and the clutch in...
On some situations like bad road conditions and surfaces, I'd be willing to bet downshifting slows a car down more safely than that, specially with no ABS and the risk of locking up (which also removes the ability to steer).

You would lose your bet.

There are a few issues with this. Lets look at the case of a reasonably good driver first, one who can perform the downshift with reasonable smoothness. So they can get the car into the lower gear without upsetting anything. That's great, but now they have few options to modulate the slowing force. They could add throttle to try to reduce slowing force, or they could choose yet another different gear (bringing in potential for a misshift or a rough shift) to try to change the slowing force. The only one of these that one can really do with any precision is adding throttle to reduce slowing force. In a panic situation, it's unlikely they need to reduce slowing force, and if they do, it's likely because the tires are already slipping, so control is already being lost (your "lose ability to steer"). On the other hand, modulating braking force - adding or removing - with the brake pedal is a relatively simple matter of increasing or reducing pressure on the brake pedal. There's no worry about which gear should I engage now, do I need to add throttle, have I rev-matched that properly, how much clutch slip should happen. Just... more pressure or less pressure.

But lets look at your example of a driver whose car control skill is so poor all they can do is panic and slam on the brake pedal, no ability to modulate. And lets look at the worst-case version: No ABS. The result of this is that the car will slow and head in the direction its inertia pulls it. It will slow at close to its best slowing rate (stopping in as little distance as possible) in most situations of this nature. Specific alternate hypothetical situations are outside the scope of a "do you heel-toe on the street" thread. This means the car may very well hit what the driver was trying to avoid, but as much speed will be scrubbed as is reasonably possible given the available traction. While that's definitely still a bad thing, it's less bad than a higher speed impact or an impact with unpredictable behavior.

Take that same driver with poor skill and tell them to downshift. Well, if they can't modulate the brakes, they can't do a smooth rev-match downshift in a panic situation, either. That means a rough downshift. In a 2WD car, the drive wheels will slip. In an AWD/4WD car, the drive wheels may slip, or the clutch may slip, or there may be drivetrain issues (potentially causing a mechanical failure). Tires slipping and drivetrain shudder/failure are all a reduction in control, and compared with slamming on the brakes and causing lockup, have the potential to cause more unexpected and potentially dangerous behaviors. The forces on the drive wheels can cause behaviors the driver at this skill level will not expect, potentially changing the direction of the car unpredictably, especially as they continue to give poor inputs to try to do something to manage the car. There are more variables, more sources of behavior changes, more bad things that can happen.

So no, barring unusual, specific scenarios, stick to using the brakes to reduce speed in a panic/emergency situation. Use the tool designed for the job.

 

[Nugget]

In regular daily driving in fairly modern cars "slamming" and "mashing" is the best thing to do on average. Sure, you may be awesome, but the vast majority will do a worse job than their ABS - and that includes the vast majority on FG.

I wouldn't even qualify the statement that much. Your ABS will absolutely do a better job than you will at a panic stop. Unless you've got four feet and four brake pedals in your car. Then maybe you stand a chance at being as good as the ABS.

 

[mpicco]

You would lose your bet.

There are a few issues with this. Lets look at the case of a reasonably good driver first, one who can perform the downshift with reasonable smoothness. So they can get the car into the lower gear without upsetting anything. That's great, but now they have few options to modulate the slowing force. They could add throttle to try to reduce slowing force, or they could choose yet another different gear (bringing in potential for a misshift or a rough shift) to try to change the slowing force. The only one of these that one can really do with any precision is adding throttle to reduce slowing force. In a panic situation, it's unlikely they need to reduce slowing force, and if they do, it's likely because the tires are already slipping, so control is already being lost (your "lose ability to steer"). On the other hand, modulating braking force - adding or removing - with the brake pedal is a relatively simple matter of increasing or reducing pressure on the brake pedal. There's no worry about which gear should I engage now, do I need to add throttle, have I rev-matched that properly, how much clutch slip should happen. Just... more pressure or less pressure.

But lets look at your example of a driver whose car control skill is so poor all they can do is panic and slam on the brake pedal, no ability to modulate. And lets look at the worst-case version: No ABS. The result of this is that the car will slow and head in the direction its inertia pulls it. It will slow at close to its best slowing rate (stopping in as little distance as possible) in most situations of this nature. Specific alternate hypothetical situations are outside the scope of a "do you heel-toe on the street" thread. This means the car may very well hit what the driver was trying to avoid, but as much speed will be scrubbed as is reasonably possible given the available traction. While that's definitely still a bad thing, it's less bad than a higher speed impact or an impact with unpredictable behavior.

Take that same driver with poor skill and tell them to downshift. Well, if they can't modulate the brakes, they can't do a smooth rev-match downshift in a panic situation, either. That means a rough downshift. In a 2WD car, the drive wheels will slip. In an AWD/4WD car, the drive wheels may slip, or the clutch may slip, or there may be drivetrain issues (potentially causing a mechanical failure). Tires slipping and drivetrain shudder/failure are all a reduction in control, and compared with slamming on the brakes and causing lockup, have the potential to cause more unexpected and potentially dangerous behaviors. The forces on the drive wheels can cause behaviors the driver at this skill level will not expect, potentially changing the direction of the car unpredictably, especially as they continue to give poor inputs to try to do something to manage the car. There are more variables, more sources of behavior changes, more bad things that can happen.

So no, barring unusual, specific scenarios, stick to using the brakes to reduce speed in a panic/emergency situation. Use the tool designed for the job.

I disagree.

 

[prizrak]

Sure, you may be awesome, but the vast majority will do a worse job than their ABS - and that includes the vast majority on FG. In my case, I'd say my cars do a better job than anyone driving them on many surfaces because while you have only one brake pedal to modulate the car has four independent pedals and can adapt to varying grip levels for each wheel, providing not only maximum stopping power but also control.

Yep, I can outbrake my Scoob's ABS most of the time if I'm concentrating but anything more modern is easily better than me. Add to it electronic force distribution and even someone like Schumacher would be better off just slamming on the brakes.

I wouldn't even qualify the statement that much. Your ABS will absolutely do a better job than you will at a panic stop. Unless you've got four feet and four brake pedals in your car. Then maybe you stand a chance at being as good as the ABS.

Older ABS is kind of crappy, it usually doesn't distribute braking force evenly just lets off if any of the wheels start slipping.

 

[narf]

I wouldn't even qualify the statement that much. Your ABS will absolutely do a better job than you will at a panic stop. Unless you've got four feet and four brake pedals in your car. Then maybe you stand a chance at being as good as the ABS.

Probably, I was just trying extra hard to avoid some butthurt wannabe racers in my head the "vast majority" is more like four to five nines.
After some butt-clenching moments involving a snowy Autobahn, ABS, EBD, ESP, DSR, and maybe even more acronyms I'll gladly concede victory to our electronic overlords in this respect

 

[prizrak]

Probably, I was just trying extra hard to avoid some butthurt wannabe racers in my head the "vast majority" is more like four to five nines.
After some butt-clenching moments involving a snowy Autobahn, ABS, EBD, ESP, DSR, and maybe even more acronyms I'll gladly concede victory to our electronic overlords in this respect

I've had VDC save my ass more than a couple of times when I overdid it in the Z, and even a couple of times in the A4. There is no getting around the fact that computers are better than humans, maybe some early versions had issues but the modern stuff is definitely better.

 

[mpicco]

Probably, I was just trying extra hard to avoid some butthurt wannabe racers in my head the "vast majority" is more like four to five nines.
After some butt-clenching moments involving a snowy Autobahn, ABS, EBD, ESP, DSR, and maybe even more acronyms I'll gladly concede victory to our electronic overlords in this respect

Which if you drive a Renault 19 from 1996 like me, is not an option.

 

[LeVeL]

What many people are taught and do instinctively is slam both the brakes and the clutch in...
On some situations like bad road conditions and surfaces, I'd be willing to bet downshifting slows a car down more safely than that, specially with no ABS and the risk of locking up (which also removes the ability to steer).

Are you suggesting that downshifting is better at braking than... well, the brakes?

The only reason to heel-toe is to be in a lower gear when you're done braking so that you can get back on the gas.

 

[mpicco]

I chose the wrong wording in my first post and it unleashed a shit storm.
I meant to say stuff like coming off a highway ramp, where I gotta go from 120 to zero (cos it ends at a stop sign) and downhill in about 100 or so meters.

And I said more safely, not just "more". If you smash the brakes in my car, you'll lock up, and skid right into whatever you were trying to avoid.