Dreaded cyclists

narf

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prizrak;n3543142 said:
Also your entire premise is flawed because you are comparing administrative and criminal offenses. I had a parking ticket dismissed before because of the sign not being clear enough (it was in a very strange location and didn't seem to have anything to do with where I parked). So I was ignorant of the fact that it was a no parking zone, and it was the city's job to make sure I was aware of it, they failed at their job and hence had to dismiss the fine.
That's different, it's the city's job to put up clear signage for no-parking-zones. If it were the city's job to make sure you are aware of them they'd have to control your mind.
In other words, it's the city's job to make sure you have a reasonable chance of being aware of the no-parking-zones. In your case they failed to do that - to transfer that to a more general case, they failed to sufficiently publish the rules. Can't follow rules that aren't published.
 
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prizrak

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narf;n3543143 said:
That's different, it's the city's job to put up clear signage for no-parking-zones. If it were the city's job to make sure you are aware of them they'd have to control your mind.
In other words, it's the city's job to make sure you have a reasonable chance of being aware of the no-parking-zones. In your case they failed to do that - to transfer that to a more general case, they failed to sufficiently publish the rules. Can't follow rules that aren't published.
That logic can still apply to things like lights, brakes, etc... However that’s secondary to what your own wiki article said, care to comment on that?
 

narf

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prizrak;n3543152 said:
That logic can still apply to things like lights, brakes, etc... However that’s secondary to what your own wiki article said, care to comment on that?
The rules on lights etc. are clear and published. It's your personal responsibility to follow them.

The wiki article says, as you quoted, "ignorance may not clear a defendant of guilt". As usual there are exceptions and grey areas, the world isn't black and white.
To translate the example exception you quoted, if law enforcement tells you it's okay to ride your bike without lights or park in a certain spot, it's understandable you'll get a reduced sentence. That's rarely the case though.
 

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narf;n3543137 said:
You're not required to know that theft, property damage, etc. are illegal either, yet claiming ignorance is hardly going to work.
Like Prizrak has already shown you, criminal law and civil law are two different beasts, and in both of them ignorance can grant you reduced punishment or freedom. There is more than that: if you can ride without any prior knowledge of the road signs, for example, you can avoid a fine by saying that the symbol on the panel cannot be understood, thus you could not figure out its meaning, exactly like you can if a municipality puts up unreadable, incomplete or wrong road panels that can't be read properly; that is ground to get the fine canceled. And this happens frequently with cars too.

But more than this, you are avoiding the central point (as Priz already pointed out), and you have avoided completely all that in my last message was addressing the main point, while keeping only the little detail you could build a pointless quarrel on. You are evading the main point and trying to derail the conversation. This is not logic, this is faulty dialectics. Logic tells you to stick to the point and not to disregard it

Again, you may be stupid enough not to understand this point (so logic is yet to come into the argument), you may be blinded by your own ego and unwanting to listen to other people and challenge your premise (so you won't let logic come into the argument), or you may be willfully trying to have fun with us (so logic will never enter the argument).

What do you choose?

But most of all, will you allow logic to enter the discussion, or not? Logic is now quite far from your words.
 

SirEdward

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narf;n3543162 said:
It's quite logical to apply different regulations to things with an engine vs things without an engine.
That is not the point -I- made.

My point was on dangerous situations, visibility, injustice. And you specifically ignored it.

Now, you keep derailing the discussion, so logic is very far away. If you want it to return, don't keep evading it
 

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narf;n3543162 said:
It's quite logical to apply different regulations to things with an engine vs things without an engine.
Yet another deflection and a wrong one at that as you have already demonstrated that there are regulations that are in common between engined and non-engined vehicles.

And again I ask what is your argument, you keep harping on motive power but that is not a good argument on any level.

Let me make this even simpler for you (this is only about on-road use of course):
Why should a cyclist not have a license that proves they have some basic knowledge of how to ride and to identify themselves to LEO?
Why should a cyclist not carry registration, for traffic code enforcement?
Why should a cyclist not carry insurance in the event of injury or property damage?
Why should a bicycle not have factory installed lights and mirrors and why are turn signals not mandated?
Why should a bicycle not be inspected to make sure it is safe to operate on public roadways?

And before you deflect, pedestrians don't count because they are not vehicles. Specialized vehicles like tractors are not particularly relevant because for one they do require a license to operate, for two are not something that will be driven to the shops, office, bar, etc... At most you might be driving from one nearby job site to another.
 
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prizrak

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narf;n3543172 said:
No pedestrians or tractors, eh? Mkay...

Yet another deflection, you know I purposely left out horses to see if you would try to make another non argument and you did just as expected
 

narf

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prizrak;n3543173 said:
Yet another deflection, you know I purposely left out horses to see if you would try to make another non argument and you did just as expected
No horses? Mkay...



What distinguishes a bike from a *motor*bike? Hmmm...
 

CraigB

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prizrak;n3543168 said:
Specialized vehicles like tractors are not particularly relevant because for one they do require a license to operate, for two are not something that will be driven to the shops, office, bar, etc... At most you might be driving from one nearby job site to another.
I've stayed out of this until now, but here goes.

This is going to vary depending on the state. In Missouri you are not required to have a license to drive a tractor on a highway. And I've even seen them on an interstate highway.

On the subject of not having insurance, in Missouri you can drive a mopped without. A moped is defined as 50cc or less and capable of less then 30 mph on level grade. You do have to have a license, but a motocycle endorsement is not required.

As far as riding a bicycle on public streets? I prefer not to, but do on occasion. I'm very concerned about were I ride (no major roads), I signal with my hands when I'm turning and make sure I'm clear before I do. I also obey traffic lights, but will usually roll through a stop sign if I'm for sure clear to do so.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the are bad cyclists out there just as there are bad drivers. You can't judge them all on a handful of bad apples.
 

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narf;n3543175 said:
No horses? Mkay...

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What distinguishes a bike from a *motor*bike? Hmmm...
That's a specialized vehicle, which I specifically mentioned, so you once again have failed.

At this point it is quite clear you have no arguments so I will no longer respond to you unless you actually care to address the issues at hand.

CraigB;n3543182 said:
I've stayed out of this until now, but here goes.

This is going to vary depending on the state. In Missouri you are not required to have a license to drive a tractor on a highway. And I've even seen them on an interstate highway.
But you are required to have a license to operate a tractor in the first place are you not?

On the subject of not having insurance, in Missouri you can drive a mopped without.
There are states that don't require insurance at all, that doesn't make it a good idea.

A moped is defined as 50cc or less and capable of less then 30 mph on level grade. You do have to have a license, but a motocycle endorsement is not required.
While IMO, it would be preferable to have a motorcycle endorsement at least having a driver's (I'm assuming you mean dirver's license here) license creates an expectation that you know the general rules of the roads, signs, how to use lanes, etc... It also requires you to have valid identification on you at all times. Also you didn't specify but do you have to have registration/plate on your moped?
As far as riding a bicycle on public streets? I prefer not to, but do on occasion. I'm very concerned about were I ride (no major roads), I signal with my hands when I'm turning and make sure I'm clear before I do. I also obey traffic lights, but will usually roll through a stop sign if I'm for sure clear to do so.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the are bad cyclists out there just as there are bad drivers. You can't judge them all on a handful of bad apples.
You misunderstand, it has nothing to do with how you or me (yes I do ride a bike on occasion) or anyone else rides, it has everything to do with rules and regulations governing use of vehicles on public roads. Bicycles are a very common mode of transportation on very busy roads with a lot of traffic, and just like other vehicles they have a potential to cause injuries, damage property and create dangerous situations. So IMO it makes logical sense that they be subject to same basic regulations as the other vehicles.
 
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CraigB

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prizrak;n3543184 said:
But you are required to have a license to operate a tractor in the first place are you not?
Nope. No driving license or registration is required to drive a tractor on a public road in Missouri. Here's an excerpt I pulled from the Missouri Driver Guide:

Certain persons are not required to obtain a Missouri driver license. You do not need a Missouri driver license if:

• You operate or temporarily operate/move any farm tractor or implementon a highway for agri-related purposes.


prizrak;n3543184 said:
There are states that don't require insurance at all, that doesn't make it a good idea.
Agreed. I was once hit by an uninsured motorist. There were at least 4 court dates and the guy finally paid me $400 to settle the damage (he rear-ended my $1000 beater Ranger). My wife was backed into in a Walmart parking lot last summer by a woman with no insurance. The lady did $1900 worth of damage to the car, gave false insurance information to the police and cost me a $500 deductible. My insurance company went after her, but didn't get a dime.

I think it's a bad plan to have people zooming around on a moped without insurance. They tend to be lower income folk and if they did hit your car would not be able to pay for the damage.


prizrak;n3543184 said:
While IMO, it would be preferable to have a motorcycle endorsement at least having a driver's (I'm assuming you mean dirver's license here) license creates an expectation that you know the general rules of the roads, signs, how to use lanes, etc... It also requires you to have valid identification on you at all times. Also you didn't specify but do you have to have registration/plate on your moped?
No, registration/plates are not required either. A helmet isn't even required, but is on motorcycles.


prizrak;n3543184 said:
You misunderstand, it has nothing to do with how you or me (yes I do ride a bike on occasion) or anyone else rides, it has everything to do with rules and regulations governing use of vehicles on public roads. Bicycles are a very common mode of transportation on very busy roads with a lot of traffic, and just like other vehicles they have a potential to cause injuries, damage property and create dangerous situations. So IMO it makes logical sense that they be subject to same basic regulations as the other vehicles.
I see your point, but I don't think it's necessary. Around here cyclists are a minority.

I know some places you used to have to register bicycles, but I don't hear anything about that anymore.
 

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CraigB;n3543201 said:
Nope. No driving license or registration is required to drive a tractor on a public road in Missouri. Here's an excerpt I pulled from the Missouri Driver Guide:

Certain persons are not required to obtain a Missouri driver license. You do not need a Missouri driver license if:

• You operate or temporarily operate/move any farm tractor or implementon a highway for agri-related purposes.
I think you misunderstood my question. What I am asking is, in order to operate a tractor are you required to have any certification or can you simply show up at tractor dealership, buy one, and be on your merry way even if you never seen one before in your life?
Agreed. I was once hit by an uninsured motorist. There were at least 4 court dates and the guy finally paid me $400 to settle the damage (he rear-ended my $1000 beater Ranger). My wife was backed into in a Walmart parking lot last summer by a woman with no insurance. The lady did $1900 worth of damage to the car, gave false insurance information to the police and cost me a $500 deductible. My insurance company went after her, but didn't get a dime.
What's even worse is that at least in the case of uninsured/underinsured driver you have some way of identifying both the driver and the vehicle. The one time I had a run in with a pedalist he just straight up left...

I see your point, but I don't think it's necessary. Around here cyclists are a minority.
I'm guessing you are in a more rural part of MO. I mean they are still a minority even in NYC but there is enough of a critical mass (see what I did there?) of them where it becomes a concern. Though by this logic motorcycles or sports cars are also minority so why should they be registered, insured, etc...

I know some places you used to have to register bicycles, but I don't hear anything about that anymore.
NY legislation tried to push bike registration through but was thwarted by all the "THINK OF THE POOR WHO CAN'T AFFORD IT!!!!111111(eleven)" crowd. The only thing we got is for commercial uses they have to wear a vest with a number and name of the business.
 
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prizrak;n3543203 said:
I think you misunderstood my question. What I am asking is, in order to operate a tractor are you required to have any certification or can you simply show up at tractor dealership, buy one, and be on your merry way even if you never seen one before in your life?
The way I read it, as long as you are doing agricultural business, you don't have to have any license, certification or training. Now I can't imagine that a farmer is going to let just anyone jump on one of his tractors and take off without a basic instruction on how to use the machine.


prizrak;n3543203 said:
What's even worse is that at least in the case of uninsured/underinsured driver you have some way of identifying both the driver and the vehicle. The one time I had a run in with a pedalist he just straight up left...
That makes them a bad person. The lady who backed into my wife's car would have left if my mother-in-law wouldn't have stepped in front of this lady's truck and stopped her. That makes her a bad person.


prizrak;n3543203 said:
I'm guessing you are in a more rural part of MO. I mean they are still a minority even in NYC but there is enough of a critical mass (see what I did there?) of them where it becomes a concern. Though by this logic motorcycles or sports cars are also minority so why should they be registered, insured, etc...
Very rural. There's about 100k people in the county, half in one city. The town I live in has ~200 residents.

Minority or not, motorized vehicles fall into another category.


prizrak;n3543203 said:
NY legislation tried to push bike registration through but was thwarted by all the "THINK OF THE POOR WHO CAN'T AFFORD IT!!!!111111(eleven)" crowd. The only thing we got is for commercial uses they have to wear a vest with a number and name of the business.
I'd go broke if I had to register all my bikes. :lol:
 

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CraigB;n3543182 said:
I've stayed out of this until now, but here goes.

This is going to vary depending on the state. In Missouri you are not required to have a license to drive a tractor on a highway. And I've even seen them on an interstate highway.

On the subject of not having insurance, in Missouri you can drive a mopped without. A moped is defined as 50cc or less and capable of less then 30 mph on level grade. You do have to have a license, but a motocycle endorsement is not required.
Texas used to allow unlicensed moped or motor-driven bicycle operation but we ran into so many classic bicycle-operator "I didn't know!"/"I don't have ID"/other such privileged pedalbikist bullshit that the Legislature finally got pissed off enough that now *all* mopeds and motor driven bicycles are classified as a form of motorcycles and require a type of motorcycle license. Mopeds and motor driven bicycles must now carry insurance, show plates and be inspected annually. For some reason the pedalbikist like asshole behavior has pretty much vanished. I wonder why.

Most states have had so many problems with these two groups that they've adopted measures similar to Texas. Most states now treat mopeds like special lower powered motorcycles that you can get a license for at an earlier age.
 
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prizrak

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CraigB;n3543208 said:
The way I read it, as long as you are doing agricultural business, you don't have to have any license, certification or training. Now I can't imagine that a farmer is going to let just anyone jump on one of his tractors and take off without a basic instruction on how to use the machine.
The way it is written it does appear that way, and yeah I agree no farmer is going to let you just hop in their tractor and go wild.

That makes them a bad person. The lady who backed into my wife's car would have left if my mother-in-law wouldn't have stepped in front of this lady's truck and stopped her. That makes her a bad person.
It's not a question of good vs bad, just a question of tracking and enforcement. If that lady would have left and your MiL was not there to stop her, your wife would have still had a chance to catch the plates and call it in.

[
Very rural. There's about 100k people in the county, half in one city. The town I live in has ~200 residents.
Can't imagine there being a big problem with anything holding up traffic then ;)

Minority or not, motorized vehicles fall into another category.
But that is the thrust of my argument, they shouldn't, instead of looking at it based on motive power we should look at it from the traffic management and liability standpoint.

I'd go broke if I had to register all my bikes. :lol:
I'm not advocating registering all the bikes, just ones you would use on public road. It also not need be very expensive to register them, make it tax funded for all I care, as long as next time some idiot dents my car I can actually get some recompense. Although to be completely honest, the whole expense argument is a non starter with me, things cost money such is life, if you can't afford something you don't do it.

Also, and this is more NYC thing, poor people don't typically use bicycles as the main mode of transportation. Only higher end apartment buildings that cost $2000+ for a studio in the nicer neighborhoods have inside bike parking and of course any apartments big enough to hold a bike will be more expensive. So most poor people take mass transit.
 

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prizrak;n3543212 said:
The way it is written it does appear that way, and yeah I agree no farmer is going to let you just hop in their tractor and go wild.
Even an experienced operator can make mistakes. Or you could be like my father and bury the damned tractor doing something you shouldn't...





prizrak;n3543212 said:
It's not a question of good vs bad, just a question of tracking and enforcement. If that lady would have left and your MiL was not there to stop her, your wife would have still had a chance to catch the plates and call it in.
Yes and no. I think most people are good and would do the right thing if they backed into someone's vehicle. This lady on the other hand would have driven off scot-free if she'd left just 30 seconds later. My wife and MiL were walking into the store when it happened.

On that note though, since it happened in a parking lot really the police won't do a whole lot. Apparently only roads fall under their jurisdiction when it comes to vehicle accidents.


prizrak;n3543212 said:
Can't imagine there being a big problem with anything holding up traffic then ;)
Most of the time, no. Traffic is pretty easy to deal with. Even in the larger city. I try to stay off of the main road with all the shopping on weekends, but beyond that there's not much to worry about.

Occasionally you'll round a corner and find one of these though:



Something that big can go whatever speed it wants, because there's no way around it... :lol:


prizrak;n3543212 said:
But that is the thrust of my argument, they shouldn't, instead of looking at it based on motive power we should look at it from the traffic management and liability standpoint.
I can't say your wrong on that point, but that's going to be on an area by area basis. Not all areas are going to have enough cycle traffic to worry about it.


prizrak;n3543212 said:
I'm not advocating registering all the bikes, just ones you would use on public road. It also not need be very expensive to register them, make it tax funded for all I care, as long as next time some idiot dents my car I can actually get some recompense. Although to be completely honest, the whole expense argument is a non starter with me, things cost money such is life, if you can't afford something you don't do it.
One advantage to having all bikes register would be the serial numbers be traceable like a VIN. That way stolen bikes couldn't be re-registered. Making them less of a target for thieves.


prizrak;n3543212 said:
Also, and this is more NYC thing, poor people don't typically use bicycles as the main mode of transportation. Only higher end apartment buildings that cost $2000+ for a studio in the nicer neighborhoods have inside bike parking and of course any apartments big enough to hold a bike will be more expensive. So most poor people take mass transit.
Quite the opposite here. It's going to be lower income (or even no income) that ride bikes for transport. Though there are some more affluent people in town that commute by bike, not many though. Mass transit is very limited, but oddly enough the trolleys (buses really) do have bicycle racks on the front.
 
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