Entire field of MotoE bikes destroyed by fire

Redliner

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Oh wow, a piece of news about a fire turned quickly into a flamewar.
Kinda sad to see this happen here, a community that is usually a place where thoughtful...


you know what, fuck it.
 

Blind_Io

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Batteries are energy storage, while efficient it is not 100% efficient meaning you have to overproduce energy in order to meet demand, something even developed countries struggle with these days.
Welcome to thermodynamics. If this is your disappointment, don't look at the efficiency numbers for internal combustion engines.
 

prizrak

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Welcome to thermodynamics. If this is your disappointment, don't look at the efficiency numbers for internal combustion engines.
Come on, you know as well as I do that while ICE is massively inefficient it is more than offset by energy content of dino-juice, and that it is comparatively cheap to suck that juice out of the ground.
Storing electricity in batteries, especially on a scale that would replace all ICE with EVs would require a massive over-production of energy and that is something even 1st world struggles with. Electric company serving NYC lowers voltage in many areas over the summer because the grid can't handle it, some part of queens actually get brown outs and even black outs when it gets bad enough.

Speaking of thermodynamics, batteries are very sensitive to environmental conditions, to the point where if your Tesla is parked outside when it's below freezing and you plug it into 110, it will actually lose charge because it has to warm up and run coolant around the cells to keep them from freezing.

I've said this before, EV is the future there is no doubt about it but it's not a very near future, it's even further for places that use 2 wheeled transport as a major way of getting around.
 

prizrak

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That's mostly due to use of:
A) Different materials to maximize usage of lithium, which all have their trade offs, like thermal runaway that Hammond experienced first hand
B) Packaging improvements due to use of polymer electrolyte, aka lithium polymer batteries that I have already mentioned upthread

Also consider that technological improvements like polymers took a very long time to make it to market so you saw a massively huge improvement almost overnight but that wasn't due to any new science but rather due to already established science being commercialized.

From the below article (article has references for what he talking about):
Some dude with a fancy title said:
Believe it or not, a revolution in lithium ion batteries is in its final stages now.
Same dude said:
When Bellcore's electrolyte made its debut in 1994, licenses were snapped up by major manufacturers. Then, nothing happened. Different theories have been presented as to why commercialization stalled. As far as I can figure out, a few unexpected challenges in scaling up manufacturing and the inertia of the leading lithium ion battery companies were the primary drivers of delays.
still that dude said:
it was not until Apple adopted lithium polymer batteries in 2009, (Apple Skips Zinc in New Notebook Batteries, Apple - Batteries) more than 15 years after their invention, that they began to truly take off.
same dude said:
Lithium-air batteries (with a lithium metal anode) have long been seen as the obvious end stage of lithium ion battery technology.
..... snip.....
This is one of those technologies that could have a big breakthrough tomorrow or never.
--considering I been hearing about us being on the cusp of li-air for no less than 5 years, I don't have much faith.

you know who said:
By contrast, meaningful and visible progress has been made toward commercializing lithium sulfur batteries (also with a lithium metal anode). Although not quite as energy dense as lithium-air, they are still worlds better on that front than standard lithium-ion cells.
.......snip......
lithium-sulfur batteries have their own source of cycle life troubles. When lithium-sulfur batteries operate, they generate polysulfides which dissolve in the electrolyte and become inactive. This process removes active sulfur and lithium from the battery which leads to instability and short cycle life.
yep said:
To summarize, lithium ion batteries or their close cousins are likely to be our main consumer electronics batteries for the foreseeable future. Rechargeable zinc-air or magnesium-ion batteries may pose a threat, but if they succeed they will bear a close resemblance to the lithium ion batteries they replace.
https://www.quora.com/How-fast-is-lithium-ion-battery-technology-improving-each-year-in-terms-of-power-density-costs-recharge-cycles-etc

Regardless of battery improvements the biggest issue for EVs will always be grid capacity. No matter how good the battery is it needs to be charged and due to transmission and thermodynamic loses that requires a well designed and fed electric grid. Which is something even 1st world is going to be struggling with, to say nothing of random village in Vietnam.
 
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argatoga

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And the little kids in Africa should all wear shoes, because that's how we do it!
They should wear shoes, foot parasites have been a problem in tropical areas of the Earth for thousands of years. Hookworm, for instance, has been shown to reduce mental development in children.

Also, imagine all those on a moped, in a car...most of those cities are already in permanent gridlock!

And why are the 100cc mopeds so cheap over ther? Because we funded 100 years of development...just like we're doing with electric vehicles now.

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Batteries aren't going to improve much more from where they are now. Physics and safety are a problem. The more energy you store, the bigger the explosion if it fails. Batteries, unlike gasoline, contain all their combustible parts. You can't just cut off the supply of oxygen to stop a battery fire.

If you have 16 minutes to spare, Thunderf00t did a good video on this:

 

prizrak

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None of which refutes the fact that capacities have increased in the last 20 years.
Sure however what I was trying to say, and admittedly didn’t do a good job of, is that there haven’t been any new research that would create any kind of major improvements.

I’d also point out that improvements up till now are irrelevant, plenty of tech moves fast when it’s relatively new and slows down to a crawl as it matures.
 
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prizrak

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i know...we made them...
So we made ancient Egyptians and Babylonians wear shoes (cuz they did) before Europe even had a civilization?
You are again reducing a massive continent to a picture you saw once in National Geographic.
 

bone

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no, i'm just pointing out we went through the "stop being poor and adapt to our standards" long ago, and it doesn't make sense
other continents have other standards, which you don't seem to understand...
 

prizrak

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no, i'm just pointing out we went through the "stop being poor and adapt to our standards" long ago, and it doesn't make sense
other continents have other standards, which you don't seem to understand...
First of all, no you didn't point anything out, you reduced thousands of cultures to a tired old trope. Second of all, I didn't say shit about adapting to our standards, all I said was that it would be better if countries that are currently poor and can't afford cars could afford cars rather than continue being poor and keep using slightly different motorcycles. Or are you saying that it's totally fine for them to keep being poor and they don't deserve wealth and a higher standard of living? Additionally, desire for comfort and safety has nothing to do with some sort of western cultural standards, that is an innate human desire. Unless you are saying that people from other cultures don't care if their kids die in a traffic accident because they were on the back of a moped, instead of inside a steel cage.
 

GRtak

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Sure however what I was trying to say, and admittedly didn’t do a good job of, is that there haven’t been any new research that would create any kind of major improvements.

I’d also point out that improvements up till now are irrelevant, plenty of tech moves fast when it’s relatively new and slows down to a crawl as it matures.
I think you need to stop posting until you get your second cup of caffeine.
 

GRtak

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It also seems to make you argumentative. We went a long way for you to end up agreeing with Blind"s original comment.
 

prizrak

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It also seems to make you argumentative. We went a long way for you to end up agreeing with Blind"s original comment.
Well Blind's original comment was that a bunch of e-bikes burned down so yes I agree with that :p

You need to understand what my point of view is, when I'm looking at battery tech (or most other tech really) I'm not looking at what's on the market, I'm looking at what is coming down the pipe and what can be done from the standpoint of chemistry and physics. In those terms there have not been a major improvement in the past 15 years, and even then that improvement is basically packaging.

Also the thing I am mostly arguing against is the implication of the argument you and Blind are making, which is that since batteries "improved" in the past 20 years that they will continue at the same rate. That's simply not true given our current understanding of physics, there is always a chance that we will discover some kind of unobtanium but I wouldn't be betting the farm on it.
 

bone

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