Ferrari most important team in F1!

Gman333-X-ferrari

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I don't understand the "original" part though, implies there was an updated Carrera GT. I won't start an argument just because for me the Carrera GT is simply the great automotive creation around.

They are both quite similar though, F1 derived engine, massively stiff, kinda scary handling. Fabulous both of them.

Would be nice if we still had Jordan or Tyrell or something.
Tyrell?
 

Necx0

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Oh dear you are a young pup :p!!!! Tyrell are one of the greatest teams in F1 history. Always stuck it to the big guys and swung well above their weight. Jackie Stewart and Ken Tyrell were the Michael Schumacher and Ross Brawn of their day, only far more ethical and far far classier.
 

Gman333-X-ferrari

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Oh dear you are a young pup :p!!!! Tyrell are one of the greatest teams in F1 history. Always stuck it to the big guys and swung well above their weight. Jackie Stewart and Ken Tyrell were the Michael Schumacher and Ross Brawn of their day, only far more ethical and far far classier.
Ah, I see...

(Google search of "Tyrell" didn't find any definitive result so it's not my fault! :p)
 

LoneWolf

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Ferrari should be held responsible for the actions of their employees.
You're kidding me right!?!

So if a shop get's robbed by one of it's own employees, the police should punish the shop owners? How does that logic work?

Fact is, Stephney and Coughlan were conspiring together in Mclaren's favour, and against Ferrari. What's more, the test drivers (and perhaps a few other Mclaren employees) were aware fo what was going on.

I know a lot of people hate Ferrari beyond logical reasoning, but the fact is Ferrari were victims in this episode, Mclaren were not.
 

ViperVX

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Ferrari is the most importan team because it's Red, Loud, Funny & most of all - because it's FERRARI. Without it F1 will get boring (even more). Ferrari is a character & a soul of Formula 1.

It's the only team, that is not afraid to SHOW thier emotions & temper, either after another win or another loss.

I'm not talking about personal preferences, it's the truth.

Ferrari = Jeremy Clarkson. They are doing anything they want, sometimes "questionable" things. A lot of ppl blame, criticise or even hate them, but it' liks shouting at the sky for being blue. It's still beautiful & ppl LOVE IT.
 
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tianluo

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Wonder how much protection and money Max Mosley gets from the Italian Mafias :p

In my book nearly none of the Italian coporations are "clean" and without mafia interventions.
 

TC

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You're kidding me right!?!

So if a shop get's robbed by one of it's own employees, the police should punish the shop owners? How does that logic work?
No, but that doesn't mean some other competing shop should get punished for what the employee did. All because they think the other shop profited from the robbery.

Fact is, Stephney and Coughlan were conspiring together in Mclaren's favour, and against Ferrari. What's more, the test drivers (and perhaps a few other Mclaren employees) were aware fo what was going on.

I know a lot of people hate Ferrari beyond logical reasoning, but the fact is Ferrari were victims in this episode, Mclaren were not.
From what I read, McLaren didn't really use the Ferrari information to their advantage. They looked at the weight distribution, saw that it would never work on their (superior) car, so they trashed the idea. Ferrari, and the FIA, have yet to show that McLaren had any sort of advantage because of the docs Coughlan had in his possession. And they've yet to prove that anymore then 3 McLaren personnel were aware of the docs prior to the spygate trial. Even Ron was unaware of the emails Alonso had until Alonso tried to commit extortion with them. But even then Ron reported this to the FIA, even though he still knew nothing about it and believed Alonso was full of... hot air.

In order for Ferrari to have been the "victim", they should have been wronged. But rather then go after the person(s) responsible, they went after a competing team and got them disqualified for the next 2 years. Not to mention Ferrari got the Constructors Title and a big chunk of the McLaren fine money, as a result.

If anyone was a "victim" here, it was McLaren. They got it FAR worse then Ferrari.
 

LoneWolf

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No, but that doesn't mean some other competing shop should get punished for what the employee did. All because they think the other shop profited from the robbery.


From what I read, McLaren didn't really use the Ferrari information to their advantage. They looked at the weight distribution, saw that it would never work on their (superior) car, so they trashed the idea. Ferrari, and the FIA, have yet to show that McLaren had any sort of advantage because of the docs Coughlan had in his possession. And they've yet to prove that anymore then 3 McLaren personnel were aware of the docs prior to the spygate trial. Even Ron was unaware of the emails Alonso had until Alonso tried to commit extortion with them. But even then Ron reported this to the FIA, even though he still knew nothing about it and believed Alonso was full of... hot air.

In order for Ferrari to have been the "victim", they should have been wronged. But rather then go after the person(s) responsible, they went after a competing team and got them disqualified for the next 2 years. Not to mention Ferrari got the Constructors Title and a big chunk of the McLaren fine money, as a result.
1) Even before the FIA got involved with this issue Ferrari had already started investigating Stepney and begun internal disciplinary proceedings against him, as well as informing the Italian police. So contrary to what you've said, they DID go after the person responsible, at least within their own ranks.

2) Mclaren's employees did utilise spy info with regards to what laps the Ferrari cars were due to pit in some of the races. And as we already know, the employees were aware of what was going on and who had what info in their posession. At the end of the day, Mclaren WERE in posession of confidential Ferrari info, that renders them guilty by default, like it or not.

If anyone was a "victim" here, it was McLaren. They got it FAR worse then Ferrari.
Yeah, and they say Ferrari fans are biased. :whistle:

Mclaren got it because they deserved it. You need to accept some basic truths, the main one being any team found in posession of another team's confidential technical data is guilty, simple as.

That, or keep sticking to your "Mclaren must be innocent, Ferrari must be guilty" argument.
 

ViperVX

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Actualy nomatter what Mosley said, Ferrari won both championships (and i don't care HOW they did it), Mclaren in 08 will have the worst garage placement, they are 100 mil$ down, with some amount of it going to other teams, including Ferrari, Alonso left, so they're out a good driver,- i don't see any bright spots.

Ferrari on the other hand is up more than 100mil prise money,2 championships, they signed a deal twithA1 (if i remember correctly) to supply engines etc, which is very good profit & even better testing ground.
 

mclarensmps

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Wow, I can't believe I missed all of this discussion.

a. Before saying McLaren cheated, provide proof that anyone outside Coughlan, Alonso, or de la Rosa, knew ANYTHING about Ferrari's dossier.

You will be hard pressed to find any (I have the 117 page FIA hearing transcript that I can link to you, on my computer right now, which I have thoroughly been through, twice)

b. Ask yourself if there was any proof as to whether any of the data was actually ever within the premises of the McLaren factory.

c. Ask yourself why the FIA has NOT come to the McLaren factory and examined the MP4-22 thoroughly, in order to see if any of Ferrari's "ideas" have been incorporated in the cars, when they have been given MULTIPLE invitations to do so.

d. McLaren claim that they are able to trace back the design ideas of every concept on their car, why has this not been looked into?

e. The only "Proof" that the FIA has are emails, and text messages, between Stepney, Coughlan, Rosa and Alonso. If McLaren KNEW what was going on, why isn't there any proof of correspondence with anyone else?

McLaren has been punished because of the actions of three individuals in the company, and all the "proof" that the FIA had, was mere suspicion as to what could have been done with the data in the hands of the people involved, rather than what WAS done. They are unwilling to go and even find out if anything was done at all, THATS how confident they are in their decision.

Such a farcical case would have never ended the same way in a real court of law, each and every one of you know this.
 

LoneWolf

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a. Before saying McLaren cheated, provide proof that anyone outside Coughlan, Alonso, or de la Rosa, knew ANYTHING about Ferrari's dossier.
They don't need to. It's proven beyond doubt that a Mclaren employee had confidential Ferrari data and used it to benefit his team, whilst also sharing it with other employees of Mclaren. They have been found to be guilty of this, and have been punished.

b. Ask yourself if there was any proof as to whether any of the data was actually ever within the premises of the McLaren factory.

c. Ask yourself why the FIA has NOT come to the McLaren factory and examined the MP4-22 thoroughly, in order to see if any of Ferrari's "ideas" have been incorporated in the cars, when they have been given MULTIPLE invitations to do so.

d. McLaren claim that they are able to trace back the design ideas of every concept on their car, why has this not been looked into?

e. The only "Proof" that the FIA has are emails, and text messages, between Stepney, Coughlan, Rosa and Alonso. If McLaren KNEW what was going on, why isn't there any proof of correspondence with anyone else?
See my above response for an answer to those.
 

TC

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1) Even before the FIA got involved with this issue Ferrari had already started investigating Stepney and begun internal disciplinary proceedings against him, as well as informing the Italian police. So contrary to what you've said, they DID go after the person responsible, at least within their own ranks.

2) Mclaren's employees did utilise spy info with regards to what laps the Ferrari cars were due to pit in some of the races. And as we already know, the employees were aware of what was going on and who had what info in their posession. At the end of the day, Mclaren WERE in posession of confidential Ferrari info, that renders them guilty by default, like it or not.
Please re-read mclarensmps' post.
Yeah, and they say Ferrari fans are biased. :whistle:
They do?

I'm not a F1 fan at all, because of garbage like this.
Mclaren got it because they deserved it. You need to accept some basic truths, the main one being any team found in posession of another team's confidential technical data is guilty, simple as.
Then why was the McLaren found guilty? They didn't have Ferrari's data, Coughlan did, and a couple drivers knew about it. Are you saying that McLaren is innocent then?
That, or keep sticking to your "Mclaren must be innocent, Ferrari must be guilty" argument.
I'm not saying Ferrari is guilty, although it wouldn't shock me if they "misplace" a few dozen dossiers next season in the hopes of knocking off any additional competition.

I think Formula 1 takes itself too seriously.
They don't need to. It's proven beyond doubt that a Mclaren employee had confidential Ferrari data and used it to benefit his team,
No, it hasn't. If this trial went before any legitimate court on Earth, it would have been thrown out.
 

Gman333-X-ferrari

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Wow, I can't believe I missed all of this discussion.

a. Before saying McLaren cheated, provide proof that anyone outside Coughlan, Alonso, or de la Rosa, knew ANYTHING about Ferrari's dossier.
Yea, and these people having Ferrari's dossier is no matter at all... <_<

The thing is that they're all part of a team; McLaren. After all F1 is a team sport, and seeing as three (atleast, maybe more) of the team's members have been engaging in illegal activities goes to question McLaren's ethics and principles...

So, the team should be punished so that none of it's members engage in such activities again.

Let's hope from now on Dennis's keep a closer eye on all of his staff.

e. The only "Proof" that the FIA has are emails, and text messages, between Stepney, Coughlan, Rosa and Alonso. If McLaren KNEW what was going on, why isn't there any proof of correspondence with anyone else?
Are you actually saying that these emails, text messages etc. are not enough evidence?

If you guys remember, here in Australia, they jailed Dr. Haneef for weeks, deported him from Australia and banned him from coming here again all because they found this email chat room conversation.

And here you are saying that evidence such as these are not enough.... <.<
 
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mclarensmps

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They don't need to. It's proven beyond doubt that a Mclaren employee had confidential Ferrari data and used it to benefit his team, whilst also sharing it with other employees of Mclaren. They have been found to be guilty of this, and have been punished.
Give me the names of those people, and a source.

Because until then, thats just words you're typing that mean nothing.

Let's hope from now on Dennis's keep a closer eye on all of his staff.
How would you like it if your employer started monitoring and tracing all your phone calls, all your communications, kept a track of everyone you met, everywhere you go, and everything you do?





Exactly.
 
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Gman333-X-ferrari

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How would you like it if your employer started monitoring and tracing all your phone calls, all your communications, kept a track of everyone you met, everywhere you go, and everything you do?





Exactly.
Well, it looks like McLaren will have to start enforcing some of these measures to control it's unruly staff.

Well picked up mclarensmps... :lol:
 

mclarensmps

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Irony and sarcasm translates really well in type, congratulations.

Basically, you either refuse to answer my question, or you admit that there was nothing McLaren could have done about Coughlan. Both ways you lose. Both ways make YOU look stupid.

You decide.

Anyways, coming from someone who doesn't even know what Tyrell, your opinion doesn't really matter much anyway.

Refrain from insults, I have as well, I can become a pretty big fucking pain in your ass as well.
 
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LoneWolf

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Please re-read mclarensmps' post.
Already responded

Then why was the McLaren found guilty? They didn't have Ferrari's data, Coughlan did, and a couple drivers knew about it. Are you saying that McLaren is innocent then?
Sorry, I've lost you here.

I think Formula 1 takes itself too seriously.
With the amount of money involved in F1, as well as the technical complexities, it has to.
 
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