Ferrari most important team in F1!

Give me the names of those people, and a source.

Apologies, I didn't realise you weren't aware of the people involved. Coughlan not only recieved the dossier from Stepney, there was significant amounts of phone calls and texts between the two in which info such as Ferrari race strategy was passed from Stepney to Coughlan. And as already mentioned, two drivers in Mclaren's camp were aware of this data being exchanged. That's three Mclaren employees with knowledge of Ferrari confedential data, and none took any steps to come clean, if anything they conspired to keep it a secret and would've kept it so had it not been for this whole episode being blown wide open.

Anyway, Mclaren employees were guilty of possessing the data or having knowledge of the possession of data, were found guilty and were punished. Mclaren should be grateful their drivers weren't thrown out of the championship too. They and their fans need to stop sulking and move on, I and many others have.
 
The fact remains that McLaren, as a team, was never in possession of the Ferrari data.

Tough, that's too bad. One of their employees had the data, two others (at the very least) were aware of it's existence, they were found guilty and punished.

Time to accept it and move one.
 
That's three Mclaren employees with knowledge of Ferrari confedential data

More proof that you never read any of my post at all.

a) I have already mentioned that it was only three people that have been proven to know anything on the matter.

b) Alonso's blackmailing scheme was proof that Ron Dennis did try to help the Max fantastic, however he could.

c) Why has the FIA not come and inspected the McLaren cars, and factory, when they still have an open invitation to do so?

You seem to have changed your story from McLaren as a whole was cheating and using Ferrari data, to 3 members of McLaren knew of some Ferrari data, and, therefore, ALL of McLaren was punished for this.

Currently 1 of those people have been suspended from McLaren (indefinitely and probably will be fired), one of them has left the team, which had been inevitable for a while now, and the third one (admittedly), we do not know the future of.
 
More proof that you never read any of my post at all.

a) I have already mentioned that it was only three people that have been proven to know anything on the matter.

b) Alonso's blackmailing scheme was proof that Ron Dennis did try to help the Max fantastic, however he could.

c) Why has the FIA not come and inspected the McLaren cars, and factory, when they still have an open invitation to do so?

You seem to have changed your story from McLaren as a whole was cheating and using Ferrari data, to 3 members of McLaren knew of some Ferrari data, and, therefore, ALL of McLaren was punished for this.

Currently 1 of those people have been suspended from McLaren (indefinitely and probably will be fired), one of them has left the team, which had been inevitable for a while now, and the third one (admittedly), we do not know the future of.

No insult but you're starting to sound like a broken record player. In the first instance you don't seem to be bothering to read what I've already written, which is actually very easy to understand. Several Mclaren employees were found to possess data or knowledge of the existance of data, that renders Mclaren guilty. I know you don't like it but sorry, that's the way it is. And as for FIA inspecting the cars, I have already addressed this in my previous post:

They don't need to. It's proven beyond doubt that a Mclaren employee had confidential Ferrari data and used it to benefit his team, whilst also sharing it with other employees of Mclaren. They have been found to be guilty of this, and have been punished.

This is getting a bit boring so I guess I'm through with this.
 
YOU are the one who keeps making claims that aren't backed up, not me.

I am of the opinion that McLaren's punishment was unjust and too harsh. Going by the actual evidence, I don't see where I am wrong.

I read each and every one of your posts, and so far, you have come up with nothing, you either mock what I write, or just say McLaren is guilty. You have not yet answered any of the questions I have asked you, and sidetrack everything I say by giving the ultimatum "Oh they are guilty".

If you say they are guilty by association, fine, but then Ferrari are guilty by association too. You can't have double standards like that.

You don't know if anyone outside the three that I (and you, later) mentioned, knew or used the data in any way, and you don't know whether they were working in McLaren's jurisdiction or outside it (and so far, there is no proof that they were working in McLaren's jurisdiction - feel free to prove me wrong, but you're probably going to chaff it, just like you've done to everything else I've said so far).

In the same way, you also don't know if Stepney worked within Ferrari's jurisdiction, or outside it.

So far, the only thing I have done is given you facts and reasoning, followed by my opinion, supported by said facts and reasoning.

You, on the other hand, have just looked at the judgment, warped it out of context, and formed your own opinion based on nothing else. THEN, you called ME stupid.
 
McLaren is guilty end of story. Their employees were in possession of information they shouldn't have been, and as the company is represented by its employees that renders the company guilty.

HOWEVER, the punishment handed out to McLaren was completely out of proportion with the nature of the crime. Also Ferrari miraculously escaped punishment in all of this, how I will never know.
 
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Irony and sarcasm translates really well in type, congratulations.

Basically, you either refuse to answer my question, or you admit that there was nothing McLaren could have done about Coughlan. Both ways you lose. Both ways make YOU look stupid.

You decide.

Anyways, coming from someone who doesn't even know what Tyrell, your opinion doesn't really matter much anyway.

Refrain from insults, I have as well, I can become a pretty big fucking pain in your ass as well.

Can this post (^) get anymore hypocritical? You're telling me to refrain from insults when you (being the hypocritical and one-minded person that you are) are insulting me. Just because you don't understand irony, you 'lash' out at me. Pathetic...

Ah, so you think McLaren couldn't have done anything about Coughlan. You stupid boy...

If Ferrari could 'catch' the McLaren spy that Stephney was, why couldn't McLaren 'catch' Coughlan?

McLaren is a team, and these people (Coughlan, De La Rossa & Alonso) were in the team. So this question the team's ethics and principles. That's why the team was punished.

Why should Ferrari get punished? They were the ones who were actively trying to get justice. Whereas, Dennis thinking that Alsonso's blackmails were just a bluff, called the FIA when Alonso really did happen to have the dossier.

I guess there's no reason to keep arguing with a 'McLaren fanboy', as if it were anyone else, they see some reason and logic...

My earlier post:
e. The only "Proof" that the FIA has are emails, and text messages, between Stepney, Coughlan, Rosa and Alonso. If McLaren KNEW what was going on, why isn't there any proof of correspondence with anyone else?
Are you actually saying that these emails, text messages etc. are not enough evidence?

If you guys remember, here in Australia, they jailed Dr. Haneef for weeks, deported him from Australia and banned him from coming here again all because they found this email chat room conversation.

And here you are saying that evidence such as these are not enough.... <.<

Fighting on the internet is like the Special Olympics... Even if you win, you're still retarded, so I'm gonna GTFO of this thread.
 
Wow.

You call me "boy", when you're not even old enough to know what Tyrell is? Judging by your posts, you're probably not even my (relatively young) age, and you're flashing the kind of epeen that would scare away even the most hardcore of forum trolls.

Of course I insulted you in the very same post I told you not to take it out of hand, because, I would have kept it just about as civil as you were prepared to keep it. Obviously that doesn't mean shit to you, so I couldn't give a flying fuck anymore.

Ferrari "caught" Stepney because of some magical "White Powder" found in their cars at Monaco.

It's been months since they investigated into this magic dust, and they still don't have a fucking clue as to what the hell it was that was found on their cars and, allegedly, in Stepney's clothes pockets.

Ferrari were "informed" of the 700+ page dossier that Stepneys wife photocopied at a copy shop (brilliantly smart move on the part of an experienced race engineer isn't it?) by an employee of said copy shop.

Can you imagine the conversation?

"Hi, is this Ferrari HQ in Modena? I'm Bill, calling from blah blah copyshop in Woking, and I think someone's making copies of your trade secrets, can I speak to someone in charge?"

"Okay, this is serious, hold on, while I patch you through to Luca..."

What a phenomenal investigation, indeed.

Cut your bullshit, know your facts, and be ready to back up your arguments with substance, because until then, you're the one who's crock full of shit, not me.
 
Mclaren are guilty for 1 Very Big Reason. THEY ACCEPTED THEIR GUILT.

They could have appealed the FIA council verdict to the real court of law, but they didn't. They ATE 100+ million $ fine & last place in constructors championship, which will give them A LOT of headaches in 08.
Plus their 08 car will be examined, probably they had to change or get rid of some parts (even if they were not copied from Ferrari but are real Look-alike ideas). Furthermore they lost Coughlan as an employee.

It all makes up for a HUGE FINE & LOSS (including reputation, possibly sponsors), why didn't they fight all that??? (Please don't tell, that they didn't appeal 100mil $ fine because Ron Dennis wanted to forget about this whole thing & move on as quickly as possible).
Yes maybe Mosley is a huge fan of Ferrari & a good friend of Luca D, but the judge in a real court certainly wouldn't be.

These are ALL FACTS!
All your theories about McLaren's innocence, wrong (or even too severe) verdict are just theories & NOT BACKED UP BY A SINGLE FACT.

P.S.
1) Mclaren cars WERE INSPECTED after round 1 of this scandal (before phonecalls & messages transcripts were revealed), that's why there's no need to examine the factory. They DID NOT find anything. THAT PROVES ONLY, that Mclaren did not put anything on their current car. (that's why the 08 car examination was ordered)
2) After transcripts have been revealed, McLaren were charged with espionage, which (if you look up the legal term) is theft of trade secrets, bribery, blackmail, and technological surveillance. Doesn't say anything about the actual use or purpose. IT WAS PROVED (by Coughlan & his wife) that he had a copy of STOLEN SECRET Ferrari documents on his hard drive & on paper, which amounts to theft. Plus, as Coughlan confirmed, he attempted to create another hard copy. (It will take a long time to explain HOW it amounts, but IT DOES).
3) You say, that because only 3 ppl knew about those documents (aswell as other confidential info) it doesn't count as a TEAM knowing about it. To Prove THIS POINT, you need to find a legal definition "TEAM" in UK LAW, in particular about the exact amount of individuals, that can be credited as a "TEAM" in terms of representation & legal responsibility, which DOES NOT exist. Therefore "only 3 ppl knew about it" DOES NOT COUNT as a valid legal argument.
 
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Finally, someone who knows what they are talking about.

I agree that McLaren accepted their guilt.

However, the reason they did not appeal because Max Mosley had declared that, if they appeal, the most likely outcome would be that the punishment would hold, as well, the McLaren drivers would be chucked out of the championship as well. If you wish for quotes regarding the matter, I will happily provide them for you. That takes care of your first and second paragraph, but if it doesn't feel free to ask me to clarify.

Second, where have I not mentioned anything that isn't a fact, except for my copy shop phone call example?

Only 3 people knowing anything, is a fact.

The only proof being emails and text messages, is also a fact.

Those were the only two FACTS that came out of the whole spygate transcripts from the FIA.

Absolutely everything else were theories and conjecture on behalf of Ferrari and their lawyers, that is, McLaren could have used the info like this, McLaren could have used the info like that.

The FACT, is that, there is no proof that McLaren actually used any of the information, and that they were charged on suspicion of being able to use the information (Feel free to prove me wrong here, or, if you want the transcripts, just ask, and I will upload).

Where and when were the McLaren cars inspected, and where were they found to have incorporated Ferrari IP? This hasn't happened to my knowledge, and if it has, please provide link to support your argument.

McLaren was charged in the court of the FIA, based on suspicion, of espionage. I grant you, this is a fact, however, the court of the FIA, is not a valid court of law, and the poor amount of evidence there was against McLaren International as a team, would simply not hold in a regular court of law.

Yes, I say, if three people work in their own accord, not under the jurisdiction of their employer, then I DO THINK that the punishment handed to the EMPLOYER is unjust. Clearly, when it is these three individuals in question, why is it not the three individuals who are prosecuted and punished? Why does the team have to be punished for their actions?

You think if a Pepsi employee had Coke IP with him, privately in his home, and he was caught with it, that Pepsico should be held accountable for his actions? Sure if he was acting under their orders, and there was proof of this, then yes, however, when there is no proof of it, why should Pepsi be prosecuted for his actions?
 
Please, let's quit this. The spy scandal should be a closed chapter. McLaren have been penalized, and whether rightly or wrongly, it's the end of the story. I just wonder how Hamilton will cope with having number 22 on his car...
 
I just wonder how Hamilton will cope with having number 22 on his car...

He will have number 3 on his car. The numbers go off the drivers constructor but obviously kept within teams. So Kimi will be 1, Massa will be 2, Hamilton will be 3, his team mate will be 4, Alonso will be 5 and his team mate will be 6 and so on.
 
He will have number 3 on his car. The numbers go off the drivers constructor but obviously kept within teams. So Kimi will be 1, Massa will be 2, Hamilton will be 3, his team mate will be 4, Alonso will be 5 and his team mate will be 6 and so on.

Nope he'll be 22.
 
It's based on the Constructors' Championship hierarchy. Ferrari took the WCC according to the FIA, and they also have the World Champio, so they get 1 and 2. BMW gets 3 and 4, Renault 5 and 6, Williams 7-8, Red Bull 9-10, Toyota 11-12, Toro Rosso 14-15, Honda 16-17, Super Aguri 18-19, "Force India" 20-21, and McLaren, having been disqualified from the WCC and getting 0 points, gets 22 and 23. If Prodrive enters F1, they'll be a new team and will get 24 and 25.
 
Nope he'll be 22.

Explain please.
The above system I mentioned has been used for many years and has never had anything to do with teams. Hence why McLaren had numbers 1 and 2 this year when they were actually 5th and 6th last year. If the FIA have decided that McLaren should be numbers 21 and 22 then that is just petty. Even if this was the case then Hamilton would be 21 surely.
 
They were 1 and 2 because Alonso brought the number 1 over from Renault. That has nothing to do with the constructors championship - the driver who wins the championship gets number 1 regardless of whether his team wins the constructors. McLaren will wear the numbers 22 and 23 (always skip the number 13) for 2008 because neither of their drivers won the championship and the team failed to score any points. Ferrari will be 1 and 2, BMW 3 and 4, and so on.
 
They were 1 and 2 because Alonso brought the number 1 over from Renault. That has nothing to do with the constructors championship - the driver who wins the championship gets number 1 regardless of whether his team wins the constructors. McLaren will wear the numbers 22 and 23 (always skip the number 13) for 2008 because neither of their drivers won the championship and the team failed to score any points. Ferrari will be 1 and 2, BMW 3 and 4, and so on.

Ok thanks for clearing that up. I always thought that they assigned numbers by going through the previous years WDC, not just for the No 1.
 
Right, clearly I'm dealing with a Mclaren fan who is intent on swearing Mclaren are capable of doing no wrong and are nothing but innocent. I should know better but I'll make this my final post.

I am of the opinion that McLaren's punishment was unjust and too harsh. Going by the actual evidence, I don't see where I am wrong.

Well, I am of the opinion that Mclaren are guilty because, when all is said and done, and as I have already mentioned many times before, several Mclaren employees had in their possession confidential Ferrari data or were aware of the existance of the data in another Mclaren personnel's possession. That's it, simple as. We don't need to go any further. They had the data, they shouldn't have had it, they were guilty of that. They were Mclaren's employees. End of story.

If you say they are guilty by association, fine, but then Ferrari are guilty by association too. You can't have double standards like that.

IF there was Mclaren data being transferred to Ferrari, they yes, Ferrari ARE guilty. But please look at the situation how it was. Stepney and Coughlan were conspiring together to transfer Ferrari data TO Mclaren, NOT the other way round. Ferrari employees were not found to be receiving Mclaren data, but Mclaren employees were found to be receiving Ferrari data. END OF STORY.

In the same way, you also don't know if Stepney worked within Ferrari's jurisdiction, or outside it.

If Mclaren can prove it, go ahead. But it's a case of either put up or shut up, I, nor most people have time for conspiracy theories.

THEN, you called ME stupid.

Please get you're facts straight before accusing anyone. I never called you stupid.
 
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