German Court to Free Woman That Killed US Soldier

jsausley said:
I agree: the right to life is a basic human right, and that's why someone who takes that right away from someone else has just forfeited their own.

It's not the same as stealing. There are circumstances which can make theft acceptable. Do you believe there are circumstances that make murder acceptable? I don't.

It's also ridiculous that a murderer (any criminal, really, but particularly a murderer), in many societies, imposes it upon everyone else to support them for 25+ years while they sit in prison, waiting out their sentence. I can understand prison sentences for people who will be getting out, offenses like theft or whatever, but for us to pay for "life" sentences, I think, is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

You would feel differently if you were falsely accused and convicted.
 
jsausley said:
There are circumstances which can make theft acceptable.
Click to expand...
Hm. A homeless person stealing a bag of apples out of sheer hunger should certainly not be punished with the same severity as a serial offender stealing the 20th mobile phone to buy some more meth. But we're perilously far from the topic here.

jsausley said:
Do you believe there are circumstances that make murder acceptable? I don't.
Click to expand...
Acceptable or not, there can certainly be mitigating circumstances. Murdering e.g. the person who raped your child, but got away with it, is surely very different from murdering the victim you have just raped?

jsausley said:
It's also ridiculous that a murderer (any criminal, really, but particularly a murderer), in many societies, imposes it upon everyone else to support them for 25+ years while they sit in prison, waiting out their sentence.
Click to expand...
It's not like inmates can't work in prison to bring in some of the money that the prison costs to run. IIRC (again ;) ), chain gangs are quite common in the US and sometimes a very good way for the people who run the prison to make money.
 
In Portugal, you can buy a million rounds of ammo and a minigun, break havoc in a city, kill 100 people and throw bombs at your heart's content, the most you can get is 25 years. It's ridiculous.
 
Can you buy a minigun? Seriously? I need to go to Portugal!

Anyhow, we have a sanction in place in Norway. If we think you're really fubar, we can have them locked up temporarily for 25 years. If we think they're a problem after 25 years, we can leave them there for a longer period, determined by courts.

I like it. It gives you leaway for when it's appropriate to let someone out, and you can keep them in if you need to.
 
:nod: if someone is considered really fubar, no German judge will grant parole after their 15 minimum years of their life sentence. That's why the system is in place how it is. If the goal of the sentence, rehabilitation, has been achieved you may get paroled. If it has not, you won't get paroled.
 
I think to judge the effectiveness of either system, one should look at the recidivism rates for that particular country. I had heard some time ago that in the United States it was around 70%

I know many see the US method as one of deterrence. If that were the case, would there be such a high number of homicides annually?

Those criticisms aside, 18 years for killing 3 people doesn't sit well with me.
 
The US system of deterrence and revenge hasn't exactly been a resounding success from the looks of things, no.

As for the length of the penalty, I don't know her. I don't know her state of mind today. If she doesn't pose a treath to anyone, and has been rehabilitated, it's less of a problem.
 
Maybe bringing another example into the discussion might help to understand our jurisdiction better for those, who struggle to accept the concept.

We already established, that convicted murderers can be released into freedom long before they spent their whole sentence in prison, if certain requirements are fulfilled. If a person has changed, shows true remorse and is therefore no longer a thread for others or for society, it doesn't make sense to lock him or her up for good in a "federal boarding-house", where the taxpayer pays for his living. It makes no sense keeping people in prison, who recieved punishment (and 15 years in prison is a punishment) and represent no danger to anyone anymore.

To illustrate the other possibility, though, here's the current case of Jan O., murderer of two children, who definitely will never be released into freedom again. He was sentenced to life today, is to be kept in a psychiatric clinic and will never ever being set free again.

Court says Bodenfelde murder suspect admitted to cannibal acts

Published: 9 Apr 11 11:47 CET

Just days before the trial opens against the man charged with the murders of two teenagers in Lower Saxony in November, the court in G?ttingen has revealed that the killer reportedly bit one of his victims.

German news agency DPA said the man also ate body parts belonging to one of the teenagers killed in the town of Bodenfelde. Court spokesman Tobias Jakubetz told DPA on Friday that the defendant had admitted to cannibalistic acts.

In late November, 26-year-old Jan O., confessed to the murders of two Bodenfelde teenagers: Nina, 14, and Tobias, 13. Their bodies were found in a wooded area on the outskirts of the town.

The court spokesman said the man charged with the murders bit a wound on the female victim's neck after she was killed. The defendant also allegedly admitted he attempted to bite off the girl's toe.

Jan O. said he had wanted to attack Nina sexually but had murdered her when she screamed and defended herself.

The killer choked Nina near her home on November 15, before dragging her to a nearby wood, where she was kicked, struck with a full beer bottle and stabbed to death in the throat.

Five days later, 13-year-old Tobias was murdered. The court said the killer initially mistook the victim for a girl before taking Tobias to the same wooded area, strangling and stabbing him to death.

A psychological evaluation of the defendant found that suspect Jan O. was mentally unstable at the time of the murders and speculated that the motive behind both killings was sexual in nature.

The trial against Jan O. begins on Wednesday in G?ttingen. Due to the gruesome nature of the crimes, a large part of trial could take place in camera.

DPA/DAPD/arp
Click to expand...

Maybe this helps to understand our way of differentiating. Not every murderer is the same and they have to be treated in different ways. This one will clearly remain a dangerous person, no matter how long he stays in prison.

Hence he is going to be locked away forever and will die in captivity.
 
Last edited:
MacGuffin said:
Hence he is going to be locked away forever and will die in captivity.
Click to expand...

But isn't him admitting his guilt by confessing a sign of him wanting to reform? Regret perhaps? I don't see anything pointing to that woman confessing so this must mean he's a better person than her. Aren't all people fixable?


I'm sorry but in my opinion taking an innocent life no longer qualifies you as a human being. May sound vindictive but that's what I think. A <20 year sentence still means that this guy will get to live more outside of prison that those two teens got to live combined. How's that fair? Try putting yourself in the family's shoes for a bit.
 
Last edited:
maxtortheone said:
I'm sorry but in my opinion taking an innocent life no longer qualifies you as a human being.
Click to expand...

Have you really thought that to the end?

I don't think so. I believe you didn't think about that at all, before your typed it.
 
Last edited:
OK, let me put it this way: outside of crimes of passion, murderers do not have the mindset of a regular human being. Can we agree on that? They are people with skewered views of reality, society and people. These thoughts that lead to these actions are instilled in them since childhood, as the mind develops the most until the teenage years.

Stanton Samenow, Ph.D.
Forensic Psychologist
Alexandria, VA

"This is the child who is restless, irritable, never, never satisfied, who is always getting into things. The getting into things is a person determined, absolutely determined, to have his way."
Click to expand...

James Alan Fox, Ph.D.
Criminologist, Northeastern University
Boston, MA

"He feels like a victim. He feels like people have been unfair to him."
Click to expand...

They are in no way normally formed human beings. I get that you think people can change, I just think they don't. And I can't really have mercy for someone that killed a person. Yes, I couldn't pull the lever of the electric chair, but I'd sign the papers for a life sentence.
 
Well, that is where we differ. I am in favor of making everyone who signs death warents pull the damn lever themselves.
 
Wow, I am actually shocked at some of the responses here! What's with all the bloodthirstiness? Execute all the murderers? I'm not defending murder, murderers, or criminals in general. But even they are human beings, many of them certainly very much capable of change, if the system allows and encourages it. Just like any other human trait. And if the US system is anything to go by, you don't have a clue of what you are talking about, having the greatest prison population and approx. 65% of inmates returning to prison upon release (sauce). I'm having trouble finding rehabilitation statistics for Germany, please share if you got them, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say they are better.

No wonder the killing of bin Laden had people dancing in the streets, shouting "USA!" (Don't mean to open a can). Some big differences manifest on the way across the pond. For me, forgiveness is one of the cornerstones of modern society. But, and I know I will get a lot of flac for this, the States in general seem to be going backwards a bit. From what I can tell.

/Flamesuit on.
 
Dins said:
And if the US system is anything to go by, you don't have a clue of what you are talking about, having the greatest prison population and approx. 65% of inmates returning to prison upon release (sauce). I'm having trouble finding rehabilitation statistics for Germany, please share if you got them, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say they are better.[...]
Click to expand...
Our last numbers are from 2004 to 2007 and if we are talking about prison (without parole), 52% of released criminals come back to prison within 3 years. With parole, that number goes down to 41%.

For referrence, the USA have 751 Prisioners per 100000 inhabitants ... we have 91. That?s a totally different ballpark of numbers there ...
 
Last edited:
We have 71.
 
Interrobang said:
For referrence, the USA have 751 Prisioners per 100000 inhabitants ... we have 91. That?s a totally different ballpark of numbers there ...
Click to expand...

Probably someone will now come forward, saying that they are simply better at catching criminals there.

Seriously, I'm waiting for that statement now...

:|
 
Last edited:
Wow, I am actually shocked at some of the responses here! What's with all the bloodthirstiness? Execute all the murderers? I'm not defending murder, murderers, or criminals in general. But even they are human beings, many of them certainly very much capable of change, if the system allows and encourages it.
Click to expand...

I could care less if they changed or not during their time in prison. Some just deserve to die. It makes little difference if they have become peaceful/regretful/remorseful/charitable. They could be helping the poor and taking care of sick children, it does not matter. They will pay for what they did and they will pay with their life.
 
Last edited:
You could care less? Wonderful.

Seriously though:
 
jetsetter said:
I could care less if they changed or not during their time in prison. Some just deserve to die. It makes little difference if they have become peaceful/regretful/remorseful/charitable. They could be helping the poor and taking care of sick children, it does not matter. They will pay for what they did and they will pay with their life.
Click to expand...
That is indeed the practice of more primitive nations. But it is not how we do it, and we don't want it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top