GM Closing WY Stamping Plant, More (Months after union extorts higher wages)

prizrak

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A more complete view? Erm, not so much. Michigan has entirely too much societal pressure to buy domestic no matter what pile of crap they're selling. So much so, I see people there put down imports without ever having really seen them and how good they really are.

The unions have not does any good since the 50s. In fact, some unions tried to sabotage the war effort in WW2.



What *possible* justification do you have for the UAW's forcing the continued employment of people who weld beer cans and trash inside body panels, deliberately sabotage wiring harnesses, and leaving trash and body fluids (all documented) inside cars? For forcing the continued employment at full wage of people who just sit around and play cards all day? Who do things like, oh, leave critical bolts out of steering columns and forget to put oil rings in engines? While at the same time billing themselves as craftsmen and demanding MORE money than a MEDICAL DOCTOR gets????? How, exactly, is the "skill" involved in operating a lug-nut-bolting machine more valuable than being able to cure the sick and treat disease????

If the UAW had actually provided craftsmanship equal to their exorbitant wages, there wouldn't be such anger among potential buyers - but there is. Yes, management made stupid decisions, (and some really truly totally stupid ones) but the perennial lack of quality and continued extortion demands of the UAW continue to drag down the US car industry.
Not to mention that the UAW is responsible for not allowing GM to move to better and cheaper means of production with assembly line automation. GM leadership made the biggest mistake of their life by signing the master agreement with the UAW all other mistakes they made were secondary.

Unions do nothing more than protect those who do not care/have no motivation to learn a trade, yet they demand the same if not more money that people who actually did spend their time and money on education.

You might also want to remember that while they are supposed to be protecting their members they fuck over their own people all the time. They only care about seniority, they don't give a damn that a 20 year old who started a month ago is 10 times more productive than a 50 year old doing that same job for the past 30 years and should therefore get some more compensation out of it.

They also don't seem to care about the times and how to work with their employer. They keep demanding higher wages when the company cannot afford it and the result will be plant closings and bankruptcy.

If the big 3 go under where the hell are the unions gonna go? The Japanese or Europeans? They will never accept unions they will accept former union workers provided they can meet their standards but they will never have a union. This is not something that UAW and the rest seem to be able to fit into their tiny little brains.

P.S. This was a response to GRtak. Spectre's response is there for completeness.
 

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If the big 3 go under where the hell are the unions gonna go? The Japanese or Europeans? They will never accept unions they will accept former union workers provided they can meet their standards but they will never have a union.
BMW, VAG, Toyota, Honda, Renault et al. are quite used to unions from their home turf. I dont hear people complain about BMW build quality despite the people putting them together (in Europe) are all unionised.
 

prizrak

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BMW, VAG, Toyota, Honda, Renault et al. are quite used to unions from their home turf. I dont hear people complain about BMW build quality despite the people putting them together (in Europe) are all unionised.
Europeans are known for reliability problems on this side of the pond especially electricals. Also the unions in EU are not exactly the same thing as they are in the US. I don't see any way that they would allow UAW to do the same thing to them as they did to the big 3.
 

thedguy

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BMW, VAG, Toyota, Honda, Renault et al. are quite used to unions from their home turf. I dont hear people complain about BMW build quality despite the people putting them together (in Europe) are all unionised.
BMW, Honda and Toyota have plants in the US and most of them are not union. Unions outside the US are different as they aren't essentially government sanctioned racketeering rings. Our UAW has more in common with the British back in the 70's than Europe of today.
 

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Unions do nothing more than protect those who do not care/have no motivation to learn a trade, yet they demand the same if not more money that people who actually did spend their time and money on education.
That's one hell of a generalization. Substitute UAW with union and you've got it. Most unions will work to make sure their company does well and make sure that they have a job to come to 10 years later. The UAW, defying all logic, seems to actively undermine the big 3. But to say that every union worker is an uneducated, unskilled, unmotivated money-grubbing tool is just plain ignorant.
 

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Europeans are known for reliability problems on this side of the pond especially electricals. Also the unions in EU are not exactly the same thing as they are in the US. I don't see any way that they would allow UAW to do the same thing to them as they did to the big 3.
Also, VAG (apparently) won't open a US plant in a union-only state, not after the debacle that happened at their Pennsylvania plant back in the 80s. They opened a plant in East Huntingdon, PA, staffed it with the UAW, and then watched their marketshare plunge as people found out how badly built cars from that plant were. It closed after only 10 years. Sony took over the building and tried to make big screen TVs there, but the electronics union wasn't any better than the UAW and Sony will be closing the plant soon.

They recently announced that they would open a new plant in Chattanooga, Tennessee; a right-to-work/non-union state. Looks like they're not going to repeat *that* disaster.

You cannot get good quality in a US built car if you involve a union. It just doesn't happen, with one exception. Toyota's NUMMI plant in California was inherited from GM, union and all. The initial output from that plant wasn't very good... so Toyota opened up a plant on the other side of the border in Mexico that makes much the same product, and told the UAW guys that either they worked to Toyota's satisfaction, or they'd simply transfer all the production down to Mexico and close the plant. Toyota has continued to play the Mexican plant against the union one, and the union guys know that if they try to strike, they're screwed - they're the only UAW plant or operation that Toyota has, and if they strike Toyota will simply close the plant and fire them all without the rest of production being affected. The UAW has little leverage there and has no hope of getting more. Toyota will close plants before they let any more get unionized.

As prizrak said, unions in the US are not like European or Asian unions. They are, however, like BRITISH unions, circa 1975.

BMW, Honda and Toyota have plants in the US and most of them are not union. Unions outside the US are different as they aren't essentially government sanctioned racketeering rings. Our UAW has more in common with the British back in the 70's than Europe of today.
You got it.

I think the *only* foreign marque US plant that is unionized is the NUMMI plant Toyota runs in Fremont, CA. The rest are non-union, IIRC.

That's one hell of a generalization. Substitute UAW with union and you've got it. Most unions will work to make sure their company does well and make sure that they have a job to come to 10 years later. The UAW, defying all logic, seems to actively undermine the big 3. But to say that every union worker is an uneducated, unskilled, unmotivated money-grubbing tool is just plain ignorant.
I used to be a Teamster, working for UPS. No, most US unions appear to be just as corrupt, extortionate and stupid as the UAW.

Those who enter the union for a job eventually sink to the apathetic level of their compatriots because American unions frown on 'going the extra mile' or even simple excellence at a job. Which is why FedEx, largely non-union, will actually drop a glider off to deliver an overnight package to somewhere in the backwoods of Appalachia, and then recover it later by truck, whereas UPS (Teamsters union) will send it out on a truck once or twice a week instead of honoring their overnight committment.
 
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GRtak

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It's the insistence that a high school drop out who has no desire to further his education or skill set that demands to make more than the engineers who spent years in school (much of which involved being picked on by said dropouts) that gets on my nerves.

The GM execs accepted a large pay cut for quite a while (though still making ridiculous amounts of money) to help the financial situation at GM, the UAW went on strike demanding more money.



I agree 100%, the UAW guys could have also done a better job of bolting together the cars so we wouldn't be insulted for piss poor build quality.
I think your vision of the pay rate at the big 3 is distorted. A new hire at GM gets $14.12 an hour, that is $29,369.60 a year without overtime. If your single without kids that is ok, but try raising a family on that.

Gm execs did nothing as magnanimous as that, the bonus they opted out of was based on profits. What bonus was left didn't amount to much in comparison to the rest of thier compensation.

Build quality has as much to do with the parts that are used as the workers. I will not say that the workers have always done top notch work, I said I have my own problems with the UAW for overprotecting bad employees. But they are using cheaper parts to put the cars together too(management decisions). It is hard to build a good car when the nuts and bolts used are of poor quality.


My biggest complaint about the Big 3 is they put the penny pinchers in control and kicked the car guys out. It is hard to make a car that people want, when you don't enjoy driving. GM moved from a car that works to fashoin statments(Hummers,SUVs). This has changed a bit, but it still needs more work. It will take more than the Camaro's good looks to save GM.

Here is some reading for you:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/general-motors-death-watch-75-desperate-times/

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/general-motors-death-watch-105-bob-lutz-screws-the-pooch/

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/general-motors-death-watch-166-the-unaccountable-accountant/

This is a huge part of the ig 3's problem:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/general-motors-death-watch-109-fingerspitzengefuhl/

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/general-motors-death-watch-187-you-cant-fix-stupid/

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/general-motors-death-watch-147-everything-you-know-is-wrong/

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/general-motors-death-watch-116-groundhog-day/
 

prizrak

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That's one hell of a generalization. Substitute UAW with union and you've got it. Most unions will work to make sure their company does well and make sure that they have a job to come to 10 years later. The UAW, defying all logic, seems to actively undermine the big 3. But to say that every union worker is an uneducated, unskilled, unmotivated money-grubbing tool is just plain ignorant.
Sorry I didn't mean that all of union workers are like that, I just meant that UAW specifically (and quite a few other unions) protect these kind of people.
 

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I think your vision of the pay rate at the big 3 is distorted. A new hire at GM gets $14.12 an hour, that is $29,369.60 a year without overtime. If your single without kids that is ok, but try raising a family on that.
That's like complaining that you can't raise a family on an entry level McDonald's salary. Neither one is intended to do so, they're entry level jobs with, oddly enough, similar skill requirements - i.e., none. That's fine, but then when you get some seniority, and have been there a couple of years, you get huge unwarranted raises.

A janitor at the Arlington, TX plant with 5 years in makes $33.50 per hour, and he doesn't actually pick up trash - he supervises crews that do it for him.

So, basically, the guy sits on his butt, wanders around the plant occasionally, and makes the next thing to $70,000 PLUS BENEFITS for it. WTF? Newbie doctors don't make that much!

Build quality has as much to do with the parts that are used as the workers. I will not say that the workers have always done top notch work, I said I have my own problems with the UAW for overprotecting bad employees. But they are using cheaper parts to put the cars together too(management decisions). It is hard to build a good car when the nuts and bolts used are of poor quality.
It's even harder to sell a car when the UAW is leaving bolts and parts out of the car. Ask merp on this forum about his Corvette sometime. Or his Mustang, which also has UAW "goofs".

Here's some reading for *you*:

http://www.autoextremist.com/current/2008/2/26/rants-434.html
 

GRtak

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$33.50 an hour for a janitor is bullshit and you know it. The only people that make that much that are invovled with production are skilled trades and they have been there many years. Where are you getting your facts?
 

Spectre

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From the actual janitor there. Want me to scan in his pay stub? I can ask him for it next Friday when I see him; he's buying Jaguar parts from me. He's shown it to me before, while laughing his ass off. I don't see that he'd turn down the request, provided I photoshop out his identity info.

I don't see why that's hard to believe, as GM themselves say that the average worker there earns $39.68 per hour, plus another $33.58 per hour in benefits.

http://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070924073107AAuGk8O

http://henrypayne.com/pages/articles/index.html

Even NPR, the bastion of liberal and union support says it:

"When benefits are taken into account, U.S. automakers pay workers an average $70 an hour. "

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11283371
 
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thedguy

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I think your vision of the pay rate at the big 3 is distorted. A new hire at GM gets $14.12 an hour, that is $29,369.60 a year without overtime. If your single without kids that is ok, but try raising a family on that.
And now you hit exactly my problem with the UAW and jobs like this in general. You don't raise a family on an entry level line working job. It's something you do to get through school or to earn a living while you train in a SKILL. If you want to raise a family on it, go ahead, but don't bitch that you aren't making as much money as the guy who actually tried to do something with his life/further human development.

I get very irritated by the thought that people working an assembly line with the same skill set as a 16 year old kid just getting in at McDonalds want more than enough to support themselves (through school). It tells me they have no drive or desire to improve their lives and merely expect the rest of us to pick up the tab. I.e. it's fucking communism, and it's proving once again it don't work.

They want to make more money but don't want to EARN more money so they force those of us that did (the customer) to pay it. Most of us said "fuck you guys I'll buy a quality product from someone else who doesn't think that way."

BTW, down in missouri/kansas $14/hour is a nice paycheck and is very livable on. In the Northeast and west coasts, I could barely raise a kid on it, and I see every day people who do more than that with a lower paycheck.

Build quality has as much to do with the parts that are used as the workers. I will not say that the workers have always done top notch work, I said I have my own problems with the UAW for overprotecting bad employees. But they are using cheaper parts to put the cars together too(management decisions). It is hard to build a good car when the nuts and bolts used are of poor quality.
What amazes me is how the line works managed to build cars without putting any of those "poor quality" bolts in at all.

My biggest complaint about the Big 3 is they put the penny pinchers in control and kicked the car guys out. It is hard to make a car that people want, when you don't enjoy driving. GM moved from a car that works to fashoin statments(Hummers,SUVs). This has changed a bit, but it still needs more work. It will take more than the Camaro's good looks to save GM.
No one on this forum denies the fact that the big 3's biggest problem has always been poor product planning more than anything else.

Might as well run around the world trying to convince the world the Dubya is dumb, you're just stating the obvious and what everyone already knows.

edit: If the UAW is doing it's job, then why are plants being closed faster than an out of orbit satellite and they are getting lower pay for new hires? I thought a unions job was to help ensure job security and pay? I got offered a job as a new hire at a GM plant in Wentzville, Mo that I turned down on account that I had no idea if I'd have a job in a year, as the man who offered it to me wasn't sure GM would be able to keep the plant open much longer anyway.
 
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Spectre

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Is he a UAW memeber or management?
Since when did janitor = management?
BCS hit the nail on the head - since WHEN is a janitor management????

GRtak, you are attempting to deny objective reality. UAW workers really *are* paid obscene wages.

No one on this forum denies the fact that the big 3's biggest problem has always been poor product planning more than anything else.
Poor product planning is to blame for a lot... but the UAW could have put those cars together a lot better than they did. Instead, the bad planning and design decisions were compounded by improperly assembled cars that fell apart quickly. One or the other would have been survivable; once corrected, customers would come back. Not both - GM's fixed most of their design and planning issues, but the clearly observable low build quality keeps driving customers away.
 

GRtak

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A janitor at the Arlington, TX plant with 5 years in makes $33.50 per hour, and he doesn't actually pick up trash - he supervises crews that do it for him.

So, basically, the guy sits on his butt, wanders around the plant occasionally, and makes the next thing to $70,000 PLUS BENEFITS for it. WTF? Newbie doctors don't make that much!


BCS hit the nail on the head - since WHEN is a janitor management????
If he is not a UAW member and is a supervisor, he is considered management.

Have any of you stepped into a plant and seen what some of those workers do? Would you do that kind of work for $30,000 a year? What do you think your garbage man makes? You may knock the people for being uneducated/ unskilled, but where would our society be without the people that do these lowly jobs. And it isn't that they don't want to be better than they are, many of them don't have the opportunities to advance themselves.
 

Spectre

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If he is not a UAW member and is a supervisor, he is considered management.

Have any of you stepped into a plant and seen what some of those workers do? Would you do that kind of work for $30,000 a year? What do you think your garbage man makes? You may knock the people for being uneducated/ unskilled, but where would our society be without the people that do these lowly jobs. And it isn't that they don't want to be better than they are, many of them don't have the opportunities to advance themselves.
Yes, as a matter of fact, I have gone to the Arlington plant - couple times to take the tour, more times than I would count to do work as a subcontractor to keep some of their IT systems going. Many is the time when I've had to sit there and wait for some lazy-assed UAW electrician type to come by and unplug or plug in a device, since union rules state that ONLY that person can do that. Bullshit is what I call it.

Most of the jobs there can and should be replaced by robots. Of the jobs on the line that currently can't be, I can't see why they'd be worth more than $40K, and that's for the complex jobs.

Any job that you can learn and competently execute the essentials of in less than half a day is NOT skilled labor; and when you go on the tour, they let you play auto worker and install lug nuts, clip various parts in, etc., etc. - within a few minutes, you're as good at it as the overpaid UAW worker doing the job!

And yes, this particular janitor is UAW.
 

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If he is not a UAW member and is a supervisor, he is considered management.

Have any of you stepped into a plant and seen what some of those workers do? Would you do that kind of work for $30,000 a year? What do you think your garbage man makes? You may knock the people for being uneducated/ unskilled, but where would our society be without the people that do these lowly jobs. And it isn't that they don't want to be better than they are, many of them don't have the opportunities to advance themselves.
Yes. In fact I currently do quite a bit more for about that much, while living in one of the highest cost of living cities in the country/world.

Right now a lot of people are happy to HAVE a job, and these ass hats are complaining about not making more money for a job that in the rest of the country has been taken by illegal immigrants who can't even speak English. While that's an entirely different discussion, I feel jobs like this are the domain of the younger generation to aspire to work their way out of.

If we all thought like the UAW, we'd be back in the stone ages with a quickly decreasing population as no one would have a fucking clue how to feed themselves as it doesn't involve standing around with a sign in hand.

Poor product planning is to blame for a lot... but the UAW could have put those cars together a lot better than they did. Instead, the bad planning and design decisions were compounded by improperly assembled cars that fell apart quickly. One or the other would have been survivable; once corrected, customers would come back. Not both - GM's fixed most of their design and planning issues, but the clearly observable low build quality keeps driving customers away.
If the cars in the 70's up to now would have been built properly, I'm sure more people would still own them saying things like "it's cheap, reliable and SOLID." Rather than "I always buy Chevy's" or "employee pricing made it a hard deal to pass up."

I have to wonder if UAW workers take pride in their work, I don't think I could handle being a job where I'd be embarrassed to say "I built that." Perhaps GM should start a policy of making everyone that touches parts of a car sign it and put their cell # on it so when it falls to bits the owner can call and chew the fucker out.
 
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GRtak

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I would like to see a scan of his check.


So does that mean you are a union employee? I have worked as a contractor and had to have a union card to get in.
 
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