Gun politics thread

JCE

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Interrobang;n3546260 said:
Damn that socialist agenda pushing Trump, I guess ... :?
LOL. Its the democrats pushing the socialist agenda. :)


LeVeL;n3546266 said:
This quote is interesting and right on point from the article.

“Mass shootings are on the rise and so is media coverage of them,” said Jennifer B. Johnston, PhD, of Western New Mexico University. “At this point, can we determine which came first? Is the relationship merely unidirectional: More shootings lead to more coverage? Or is it possible that more coverage leads to more shootings?”
 

calvinhobbes

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JCE;n3546237 said:
I suppose I better make sure to buy an AR and AK before the inevitable ban the next liberal president/congress enacts.
Interesting. You've got a Republican President, Senate and House with no indication whatsoever that all of this might change to Democratic anytime soon, let alone with the consequence you describe, and you're still buying the "Those bogeymen are gonna take our guns away!" propaganda. Methinks the problem here might not be reality.

Anyway, if it did ever happen, I'd be happy to send you thoughts and prayers. If those are good enough for grief-stricken families, they're good enough for pissed-off gun owners.
 

Interrobang

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JCE;n3546271 said:
LOL. Its the democrats pushing the socialist agenda. :)
That's strange, I thought Trump and the Republicans were running the country but yet you still think the 'country continues its downward spiral turning into a European style cesspool of socialism'.

Are you so tired of winning that you need to fall back into old complaining-mode?


LeVeL;n3546266 said:
Did not read that article now, but yes - giving the shooter coverage, making this about him - will lead to more people going down this path and even trying to copy them. That has been well known now for decades. Every mass shooting, every horrible crime spawns copycats.

Does also apply to terrorism btw. The more you validate acts of violence like mass shootings, terrorism, give it coverage and especially talk a lot about the people doing these attacks - the more people will commit these sort of acts.

People should talk about the victims, about general stuff, about how to learn from these tragic events - and not paint the people responsible as some sort of devil. That only brings forth more of them.

An interresting short clip from Great Britan, from 2009 here:
 

JCE

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Interrobang;n3546274 said:
That's strange, I thought Trump and the Republicans were running the country but yet you still think the 'country continues its downward spiral turning into a European style cesspool of socialism'.
Newsflash mate, each state and even within each state are run by more than just 1 party. Just because one party controls the federal government and white house doesn't mean there aren't pockets of useless socialists trying to ruin the fun for all. Just go visit California for an eye opening. :)

Are you so tired of winning that you need to fall back into old complaining-mode?
Winning? I wasn't aware there was any winning? All politicians and both major parties in the US are pretty much bullshit, no one but them are winning here if there is any winning to be had. I just want my liberty and be left alone all-the-while not infringing upon yours. So, no, I'm not winning I'm losing.
 

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calvinhobbes;n3546273 said:
Interesting. You've got a Republican President, Senate and House with no indication whatsoever that all of this might change to Democratic anytime soon, let alone with the consequence you describe, and you're still buying the "Those bogeymen are gonna take our guns away!" propaganda. Methinks the problem here might not be reality.

Anyway, if it did ever happen, I'd be happy to send you thoughts and prayers. If those are good enough for grief-stricken families, they're good enough for pissed-off gun owners.
You do realize that United States aside from the federal government has state, county, city, etc... governments and that regardless of who is in control in DC they have quite a bit of power to regulate. NYC has the most ridiculous gun laws this side of Japan, makes German laws look downright permissive. CA is basically USSR light at this point as far as their politics go so yes despite Republican controlled (and JCE is 100% on the money when he says only the politicians win) federal government the overall direction of the country has been increasingly to the left.
 

calvinhobbes

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prizrak;n3546278 said:
You do realize that United States aside from the federal government has state, county, city, etc... governments and that regardless of who is in control in DC they have quite a bit of power to regulate.
Yup. I also realise that these different regulations have no effect on the de facto availability of guns because I have never once been searched for weapons when I crossed a state border. Not even going into Canada and back.

prizrak;n3546278 said:
NYC has the most ridiculous gun laws this side of Japan, makes German laws look downright permissive. CA is basically USSR light at this point as far as their politics go
Do you realise that you're not furthering your argument by calling some of my favourite places in the US (also among those where I consistently feel safest) prime examples of bad gun politics? ;)

prizrak;n3546278 said:
so yes despite Republican controlled (and JCE is 100% on the money when he says only the politicians win) federal government the overall direction of the country has been increasingly to the left.
How did you arrive at that conclusion?
 

prizrak

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calvinhobbes;n3546281 said:
Yup. I also realise that these different regulations have no effect on the de facto availability of guns because I have never once been searched for weapons when I crossed a state border. Not even going into Canada and back.
No regulation is going to do anything for availability of guns when there are over 300 million of them in the country.
I know it’s terrible that a country doesn’t randomly search people for no reason at all..

Do you realise that you're not furthering your argument by calling some of my favourite places in the US (also among those where I consistently feel safest) prime examples of bad gun politics? ;)
Do you realize that despite what you might think or read in the media there are very few places in the US where violent crime is high. You might like NYC but I doubt you’d feel very safe in East New York (neighborhood in Brooklyn) or in Oakland in Cali. Ironically these are the places you are the most likely to get shot, despite all the gun laws.


How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Look at the list of local regulations, zoning, licensing requirements, etc...
 

calvinhobbes

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prizrak;n3546282 said:
No regulation is going to do anything for availability of guns when there are over 300 million of them in the country.
Apart from, of course, regulations that reduce the total number and make the things less available to those who are not supposed have them.

prizrak;n3546282 said:
I know it’s terrible that a country doesn’t randomly search people for no reason at all..
Bringing contraband into an area is a very good reason to search someone. Also, it'd be a state doing the searching. ;-)

prizrak;n3546282 said:
Do you realize that despite what you might think or read in the media there are very few places in the US where violent crime is high. You might like NYC but I doubt you’d feel very safe in East New York (neighborhood in Brooklyn) or in Oakland in Cali. Ironically these are the places you are the most likely to get shot, despite all the gun laws.
IIRC, I've only ever been through East New York on the way to the Howard Beach AirTrain station and through Oakland on the way to that "socialist cesspool" (SCNR) Berkeley, so I have nothing to report from either of those areas. The necessity for "no guns allowed in this hospital" signs in several states did, however, make me feel somewhat queasy. As did the guy storming into the lobby of my hotel somehwere in Texas (ot it might have been Oklahoma) with a very visible gun strapped to his waist. He'd only forgot to hand in the key card, but still.

prizrak;n3546282 said:
Look at the list of local regulations, zoning, licensing requirements, etc...
Did you mean it's becoming more bureaucratic? That isn't the same as "left wing".
 

prizrak

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calvinhobbes;n3546284 said:
Apart from, of course, regulations that reduce the total number and make the things less available to those who are not supposed have them.
There is quite a bit of regulation that stops people who are not supposed to have guns from having them. Or do you think they are handed out with a driver's license here or something?

Bringing contraband into an area is a very good reason to search someone. Also, it'd be a state doing the searching. ;-)
If there was a reason to suspect you of having contraband you would be searched. I wasn't searched when I stepped off the boat in Monaco, Florence or Rome either. Nor was I searched when making a connection in Paris when I went to Greece.

IIRC, I've only ever been through East New York on the way to the Howard Beach AirTrain station and through Oakland on the way to that "socialist cesspool" (SCNR) Berkeley, so I have nothing to report from either of those areas.
If you were on the blue line (ACE), which I think you would have to be to get to AirTrain you are lucky you didn't get shot, it's relatively common that there are shootings on that line. At least more so than on the other lines.

The necessity for "no guns allowed in this hospital" signs in several states did, however, make me feel somewhat queasy. As did the guy storming into the lobby of my hotel somehwere in Texas (ot it might have been Oklahoma) with a very visible gun strapped to his waist. He'd only forgot to hand in the key card, but still.
That's down to your own prejudices and hang ups and nothing to do with the actual safety of the area. Vermont is one of the safest states in the union and you can get a gun extremely easily, you don't need a license for anything.

Did you mean it's becoming more bureaucratic? That isn't the same as "left wing".
I mean government trying to legislate your life, which is typically a left wing thing, though US "right wing" wants to do the same they just try to regulate different things.
 

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The point in these shootings are not guns, even though I think they are generally too common in the US and the regulations are not enforced thoroughly.

The point is a society that brainwash people by telling them constantly that they can and will be successful and rich, that if they don't end up that fateful way the reason is someone else acted against them and that when they are alone and suffering and poor and emarginated nobody cares, even faced to telltale signs of a mind going seriously wrong and problematic.

Guns are a red herring. Not that they are unimportant, but I felt way safer in an event where literaly everyone was carrying one or more guns than in certain areas of my gun-free nation that were full of shady looking people (you know... a screwdriver or a kitchen knife can kill you).
 

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Not really related to the conversation, but some fuckhead kid in my old high school said he was going to shoot up the school a couple days ago, and someone reported him. It looks like he wasn't actually planning anything, and the kid didn't have any of his own guns at home and didn't have anywhere near the school, but he admitted to saying it, so he was taken into custody. His parents turned over three of their own guns pending the outcome of the situation.

When i went to school there in the mid-to-late 90s, kids still drove to school with gun racks in the back windows of their pickup trucks. You couldn't bring them into the school building, though.

We were the first freshman class to have all of the doors locked all day during class (to come in, you had to go through the front main doors)...but it was not so much as a security thing, but primarily so that it was harder to sneak in a side door if you cut class. However, in my sophomore year, there was an incident where someone walked up to one of the side doors with a ski mask and a hunting rifle, fought with the locked doors for a few moments, then took off running and got away. They had walked all the way through the parking lot from the street, far out of view from any of the few security cameras. Nobody ever found out who it was, but that was sketchy as fuck. The local city police department, from about the next month on to today, kept an on-duty, unarmed police officer at the school all day. Why unarmed? People were affraid someone would try to steal the cop's gun in a crowded hallway or something similar.

This post doesn't really have an ending/punchline, and isn't really meant to portray any sort of political leaning or proposal of any sort of "solution", but thought it was a few interesting bullet (no pun intended) points.
 

TC

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The insanely hyperbolic rhetoric going around is sad and pathetic. I understand emotions are high, but openly lying about people who disagree with your own views and accusing them of wanting death in our schools, or worse, is immoral and a disgrace to this country.

People deride others for saying "thoughts and prayers", oblivious to the fact that some of those people would whole heartily support a gun ban and a 2A repeal. They then talk about universal background checks, apparently oblivious to the fact that almost all these mass shooters passed federal background checks, and those that didn't, like the Sandy Hook shooter, killed people and stole their guns. It's still perfectly fine to fight for universal background checks, but the moment you accuse people who disagree of not caring about the lives of children, is the moment you talk out of your ass.

Then there is the "assault weapon" ban. Fine, fight for a ban on almost every rifle in the country, good luck. But the fact remains that the deadliest school shooting in US history was Virginia Tech. And that shooting wasn't done with a rifle, it was done with a pair of pistols. That isn't an argument against banning rifles, mind you, just a reality check for people who think their children would suddenly be safe if only the AR-15 is banned. It's a naive pipe dream.

Personally, I do think increased security is the only suggestion being offered that might actually save lives. I also think every teacher's desk should have a locked drawer, with a biometric safe of some kind, mounted inside. And any teacher that feels comfortable, and can pass whatever standards the school lays out, could have a gun in that safe. But only the school's principle and law enforcement would know which teachers actually have a firearm. It could be that none of them do, but that should be kept as close to the chest as possible. For all any would-be shooter would know, the school could be armed to the teeth, even though it is not.
 

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Perhaps, I think something like closer enforcement of your existing gun laws would do wonders. Ir seems this last incident seems to have been the most preventable incident in the history of school shootings if literally any government agency had done their job properly (the police did to some extent, but the FBI seriously dropped the ball.)

On the subject of general disarm. I can only offer the perspective of a country with a rather intense problem with shootings. What happens on a general disarm would be law abiding people surrendering their guns and then limiting their options of self-defense against less law-abiding people, whom are probably already in the midst of more serious offenses. Mental health and lapses in enforcement of existing gun laws seem to be the underlying issue to, well, the reason this thread exists.
 
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JCE

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TC;n3546517 said:
The insanely hyperbolic rhetoric going around is sad and pathetic. I understand emotions are high, but openly lying about people who disagree with your own views and accusing them of wanting death in our schools, or worse, is immoral and a disgrace to this country.
This is how the left and media want it. And the worst part about it is these kids are being brainwashed and since they aren't old enough nor have any life experience to form any sort of opinion so they are being preyed upon because of this tragedy since they are at a very impressionable age. And the ones that met with the president seemed a bit briefed on what to say too as well.

Then there is the "assault weapon" ban. Fine, fight for a ban on almost every rifle in the country, good luck. But the fact remains that the deadliest school shooting in US history was Virginia Tech. And that shooting wasn't done with a rifle, it was done with a pair of pistols. That isn't an argument against banning rifles, mind you, just a reality check for people who think their children would suddenly be safe if only the AR-15 is banned. It's a naive pipe dream.
You cannot have any sort of logic, the anti-gun crowd simply will dismiss it in their quest for their end goal of complete control.

Like with other events like this the bullshit will start to fade once the media jumps on another subject to continue their social engineering.

The solution is, like you mentioned, more armed security in more places. Preferably former military and or law enforcement to ensure the best bang for our buck. If the left or anti-gun people want to truly protect the people stop paying for bullshit programs and beef up public protection. Hire these security as US Marshalls or FBI, don't care, just make it happen. But there is that logic thing again, got to stop that!
 

prizrak

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The thing that no one has ever answered is where do you draw the line? Many people talk about tougher gun restrictions, so say those all get passed and there is another shooting. Are people going to say “well this is OK, we have done all we could, shit will happen” or are there going to be calls to toughen up laws again?
 

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prizrak;n3546521 said:
The thing that no one has ever answered is where do you draw the line? Many people talk about tougher gun restrictions, so say those all get passed and there is another shooting. Are people going to say “well this is OK, we have done all we could, shit will happen” or are there going to be calls to toughen up laws again?
You already know the answer. It's the same slippery slope that we've been sliding down for eighty years.
 

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LeVeL;n3546523 said:
You already know the answer. It's the same slippery slope that we've been sliding down for eighty years.
^ This, unfortunately. It's about the control more than the firearms themselves, you give an inch and they will take it all.

I really hope the 2A survives because I cannot imagine our country without it. Well I guess I can imagine, just looking across the pond tells me all I need to know that I want no part in that. ;)
 

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So the news today was that the armed deputy working at the school took a defensive position outside (for about for minutes) and didn’t go in. I’ve read a lot of comments online calling him a coward.

Curious what everyone else’s thoughts are on that. I’m also curious as to what explanation he has for not entering the school.
 

TC

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I think it's understandable why he might have been terrified to go in alone. There is a reason we call people heroes when they run towards gun fire or explosions, rather than away from it. Not everyone is cut out to be a hero. But it does seem like a lot of people dropped the ball quite badly down there. I can only hope a few lessons were learned and steps are being taken.
 
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