Gun politics thread

TC

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Firecat;n3546746 said:
Question, and this also relates to the deputy that didn’t go into the school

Does a teen (or any of these other mass shooters) with an assault weapon have a major edge over a trained officer with a hand gun? I feel like firepower in and of itself can tip the scale, but there is a lot more to consider. So I’m not 100% on board with cops armed to the teeth in order to “level the playing field”

it goes into that whole militarization of the police, and turning law enforcement into a tool to suppress (or oppress) the public instead of serving the public.
I would say it depends on the situation. Rifles are more powerful and have longer range, with better accuracy, but if you're in close quarters I can't see it mattering much. Getting shot in the face at point blank range with a pistol, rather than a rifle, isn't going to result in a higher probability of survival.

As for militarizing the police, the fact remains that militaries do not use guns like AR-15's. They use much more powerful and versatile weapons. Semi-automatic rifles really aren't anything special or cutting edge. Many of these designs go back at least a half century. They're extremely basic.

93Flareside;n3546747 said:
I'm sorry? That'd be like United Airlines pulling their discounts and sponsorship with the weed community. Yeah, weed hasn't killed anyone but, imagine if this were any other organization that wasn't headed by white male "Christians."

Christians are in quotes because if you think your right to shoot a fucking gun is more important than your fellow man's life, I don't think you quite understand the faith and what it teaches.
The Delta thing is really stupid. The correct thing would have been to simply let it go and let the public form their own opinions. That politician is more than likely an opportunist trying to gain attention and popularity by lashing out at Delta. Of course, the idea of a massive company not getting a tax break shouldn't bother many on the left, but no doubt they will make an exception in this case.

As far as shooting a gun being more important than the lives of others, that is a slippery slope that will not end well. Those who sacrifice freedom for security end up with neither. Without the means to defend yourself, your right to self preservation is a joke. Without the right to self preservation, your right to live is a joke.
 

calvinhobbes

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TC;n3546750 said:
Of course, the idea of a massive company not getting a tax break shouldn't bother many on the left, but no doubt they will make an exception in this case.
Eh? If the unfortunate policy of corporate welfare "incentives" exists, surely it should be applied indiscriminately, no matter if you're "left-wing" or "right-wing"?
 

LeVeL

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jack_christie;n3546745 said:
What's the problem, its just common sense.

Keep combat weapons for the army and police.
-"Common sense" is an oxymoron these days.
-An AR15 is NOT a combat weapon. I don't know how many times we need to go over this. There's no military on Earth that uses one.
-The problem is that CNN is fake news. Neither of those two know how to shoot a gun, especially the reporter who could barely even hold the thing. Even their ex-mil "expert" couldn't shoot straight, wtf? Then there's "full semi automatic" - wtf does that even mean??? It's nothing but ignorant CNN garbage and you fell for it.


93Flareside;n3546747 said:
... imagine if this were any other organization that wasn't headed by white male "Christians."
The NRA? Tons of non-white non-christian members, I'm one of them.


93Flareside;n3546747 said:
Christians are in quotes because if you think your right to shoot a fucking gun is more important than your fellow man's life, I don't think you quite understand the faith and what it teaches.
Are my rights and my freedom more important than your life? You're damn right they are. History has taught us that lesson many times over.



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Firecat;n3546746 said:
Question, and this also relates to the deputy that didn’t go into the school

Does a teen (or any of these other mass shooters) with an assault weapon have a major edge over a trained officer with a hand gun? I feel like firepower in and of itself can tip the scale, but there is a lot more to consider. So I’m not 100% on board with cops armed to the teeth in order to “level the playing field”

it goes into that whole militarization of the police, and turning law enforcement into a tool to suppress (or oppress) the public instead of serving the public.
It really depends... Most officers don't get much training with firearms - there's this persistent myth that the police are good with guns but it's simply not true if they're relying just on department training. The cops I know all shoot outside of work/training so I reckon their chances against some untrained guy with a rifle are ok (again, depends - down a long hallway the rifle has the edge but hopefully you'd be smart enough not to engage him down said hallway). I also shoot matches with cops and they would totally wreck some moron with an AR in close quarters (again, because of additional training and experience). So it all depends. Shooting unarmed cowering kids is easy - mass shooters almost always kill themselves when confronted by someone with a gun - so these lowlives aren't exactly skilled.
 

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LeVeL;n3546741 said:
CNN, what in the hell is this? I have a hard time believing that this guy ever served.

This ex-general must have never gone through basic training because his form is shit.
"They look very similar" A lowered Civic with a big ass wing looks similar to a race car, what's your point?
AR is not a base for the M4 carbine, IIRC AR is actually based on the M16, minus all the select fire stuff.
What's the problem, its just common sense.

Keep combat weapons for the army and police.
Agreed, military and police get used in many wars Muskets and I'll get a never used by any military AR15.
Question, and this also relates to the deputy that didn’t go into the school

Does a teen (or any of these other mass shooters) with an assault weapon have a major edge over a trained officer with a hand gun? I feel like firepower in and of itself can tip the scale, but there is a lot more to consider. So I’m not 100% on board with cops armed to the teeth in order to “level the playing field”
Very situational but theoretically if a dude is trying to pump rounds into some kids his not watching his back. Regardless though I expect a cop to get his ass in there and TRY.
Eh? If the unfortunate policy of corporate welfare "incentives" exists, surely it should be applied indiscriminately, no matter if you're "left-wing" or "right-wing"?
Shouldn't exist in the first place
 
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LeVeL

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Recognizing that we already have many safeguards against an incident like this and that the government utterly failed to do their jobs, would mean admitting that the government can't protect us, which, in turn, would validate our reason for keeping private arms. The left can't have that so they're still pretending that my guns are the problem and not government policy and agents.
 

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jack_christie;n3546745 said:
What's the problem, its just common sense.

Keep combat weapons for the army and police.
Except the real "military combat weapons" aren't actually generally legal for civilian ownership and haven't been since 1934. What they're trying to get banned is basically low power hunting and varmint rifles that *look* like military combat weapons. Or, in other words, the firearm equivalent of a Mitsubishi Lancer OZ Rally with the claimed justification that they are exactly the same as the cars that compete in World Rally and therefore is unsuitable for civilian ownership

Additionally, the most common deer/moose/elk hunting guns are *more* powerful, not less, than the typical British or American issue assault rifle. If you want to see *more* people dead instead of just wounded, take away the low hanging AR/AK fruit and watch what happens.
 
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Spectre

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calvinhobbes;n3546761 said:
Eh? If the unfortunate policy of corporate welfare "incentives" exists, surely it should be applied indiscriminately, no matter if you're "left-wing" or "right-wing"?
Many people, both in the Georgia Legislature and in general, don't like the Delta incentive or other forms of corporate welfare. There are Georgia Democrats that support killing the proposed Delta tax break on the grounds that it is just corporate welfare.

It should also be pointed out that Delta tried to cover their ass by claiming their disengagement with the NRA was simply to avoid being partisan and "get out of the debate." Unfortunately, that has proven to be a lie as they didn't disengage from their association with *anti-gun* organizations at the same time. Whoops.

Edit: Hey, what happened to the automatic post merge thing?
 

Spectre

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So, there are people that say that civilians should have their guns taken away because then criminals wouldn't be able to get them. "Only the police can be trusted with guns!" is one common cry. Here's evidence that criminals would get them from the cops anyway. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...302-story.html

Feds charge former Pasadena police spokesman with illegally selling more than 100 guns

A Pasadena police officer who formerly served as spokesman for the department turned himself in to authorities Friday after a federal grand jury indicted him on charges of selling dozens of guns across Southern California without a license.

Lt. Vasken Gourdikian faces four felony counts, including illegally possessing a short-barreled rifle and providing false statements while buying firearms, according to the indictment filed Thursday in U.S. District Court.

The accusations mark a dramatic fall for Gourdikian, once a top-ranking official for the Pasadena Police Department and adjutant to Chief Phillip L. Sanchez.

Appearing in federal court Friday afternoon in downtown Los Angeles, Gourdikian, 48, pleaded not guilty. His defense attorney, Mark Geragos, praised his client's "unblemished and distinguished career" as a police officer and vowed to fight the charges.

"This indictment is misguided and truly an abuse of the supposed discretion of the government," Geragos said in the statement.

The 22-page grand jury indictment accuses Gourdikian of selling more than 100 firearms without a license from March 2014 until February 2017, when agents raided his home in Sierra Madre.

As a sworn peace officer in California, Gourdikian was eligible to purchase "off roster" handguns, firearms that are not in the state-published catalog of certified handguns and therefore not available to the public.

His status as a police officer also allowed him to purchase more than one handgun in a 30-day period and, with special waivers from the Pasadena Police Department, he was able to obtain firearms without completing the usual 10-day waiting period.

In an online forum, he posted ads offering firearms and described the guns as "off roster" and sold an array of pistols and semiautomatic rifles across Southern California, the court papers allege.

"In these days of escalating gun violence, it is important to enforce our firearms laws vigorously," U.S. Atty. Nicola T. Hanna said in a statement. "Those who sell guns illegally need to be held accountable, especially those who abuse a position of public trust."

A Pasadena police officer since 1994, Gourdikian was placed on paid administrative leave after agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives seized the guns from his San Gabriel Valley home.

City officials said that based on the indictment, he will remain on leave but will no longer receive a salary. The city's internal affairs probe, which was suspended pending the outcome of the criminal investigation, will also resume, according to a statement issued by the Pasadena Police Department.

During the search of Gourdikian's home, agents seized 62 firearms — a cache of weapons that required two trucks to haul away. The weapons were later listed on a federal registry of potential forfeited assets.

ATF officials said the inquiry into Gourdikian began through routine analysis of handguns recovered by law enforcement and sales records.

"Bringing a case against a law enforcement officer is never pleasant, but we hold public safety and a commitment to justice above everything," Bill McMullan, the special agent in charge of the ATF office in Los Angeles, said in a statement.

Prosecutions of sworn law enforcement officers for firearms violations are rare.

In 2016, a former Sacramento County sheriff's deputy, Ryan McGowan, was sentenced to 18 months in federal prison after a jury convicted him of dealing firearms without a license and falsifying records.

McGowan used his privileges as a deputy to buy off-roster guns, then resold them at a profit on the private market. He also worked with a licensed gun dealer to evade federal law, prosecutors said.

This guy made many anti-gun statements and promoted gun control while a spokesman for his department. It appears that the reason he did so was to drive his legal competition out of business. Just like California state senator Leland Yee did - pushed for stringent gun control and at the same time trafficked in weapons for civilians to buy, selling them to (by definition) criminals.

Court records show that Yee agreed to perform certain official acts in exchange for mayoral campaign and later secretary of state campaign donations. He obliged one undercover agent who wanted him to make a call to the California Department of Public Health on behalf of an invented contract, as well as another who asked him to take a particular stance on medical marijuana legislation.

Yee also discussed buying weapons overseas and bringing them to the U.S. with two associates and an undercover agent. He accepted $6,800 and a list of arms for purchase in the Philippines.

The maneuvers were not only illegal, but also in stark contrast to what he had long purported to stand for.

Yee told CBS two years before he was arrested: “It is extremely important that individuals in the state of California do not own assault weapons. I mean that is just so crystal clear — there is no debate, no discussion.”

As a legislator, Yee supported strict gun control laws and was named to the Brady Campaign’s Gun Violence Prevention Honor Roll.
So, apparently it's not okay for law abiding citizens in CA to own 'assault weapons' but it's perfectly fine for criminals to by his lights.

Also, love the bland assertion that "Prosecutions of sworn law enforcement officers for firearms violations are rare." and then they immediately mention another one from just two years ago. Pretty sure this is more common than they'd have you believe, from what I've heard from CA...
 
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Spectre

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Back on the prior topic, the Florida school shooting and the local police's disgust at the Sheriff's deputies hiding and refusing to press in as pretty much all post-Columbine training stresses - it turns out that aside from the one guy who ran outside and cowered, the additional deputies arriving on scene were ordered to NOT go in but to set up a perimeter and wait. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article203015289.html

Deputies were told to set up ‘perimeter’ around Parkland shooting. That’s not the training

The Broward Sheriff’s Office captain who initially took charge of the chaotic scene at a Parkland high school where 17 people were killed told deputies to form a perimeter around the deadly scene — which they did instead of going in to confront the shooter, according to a partial BSO dispatch log obtained by the Miami Herald.

Capt. Jan Jordan, commander of BSO’s Parkland district, gave the order, the log shows, identifying her by her police call sign.

Broward Sheriff Scott Israel has said BSO training and nationwide active-shooter procedure call for armed law enforcement officers to confront shooters immediately rather than secure a scene.

The document raises fresh questions about the department’s handling of the mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School on Feb. 14.

Before being appointed to command Parkland, Jordan was assigned to BSO’s civil division, which serves subpoenas and injunctions, according to her online biography. She was previously with the Fort Lauderdale Police Department, where Israel also worked.

BSO did not directly dispute that Jordan issued a stand-down order. Nor did the agency confirm it.

“If detectives had answers to all of the questions, then there would be no need for an investigation,” BSO spokeswoman Veda Coleman-Wright wrote in an email late Thursday night.

Israel has already publicly lambasted one deputy, Scot Peterson, who did not enter a Stoneman Douglas building where Nikolas Cruz mowed down students and staff. Three other BSO deputies were also stationed outside the school, according to CNN. Coral Springs police officers were the first law enforcement to enter the building, about four minutes after Cruz left the school, Israel said on the cable network.

Time stamps were not visible on the log of calls to BSO dispatch obtained by the Herald. But a fuller version shared earlier with Fox News shows the shooting — which lasted roughly six minutes — would have been over by the time of Jordan’s order.

Cruz’s gun is reported to have jammed during the shooting, causing him to flee the scene and possibly ending his deadly rampage earlier than he intended.

Still, he should have been confronted by deputies as soon as they arrived, Israel has said.

Peterson, who resigned last week but is defending his actions, was trained to have “killed the killer,” Israel has said.

BSO has generally refused to answer questions about how the shooting was handled, citing an ongoing internal investigation, and is examining the conduct of its deputies and commanders. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement has also been tasked with investigating.

Israel did not return a phone call Thursday. Jordan could not be reached.

She is one of three finalists for the police chief job in Tequesta, according to the Palm Beach Post.
 

LeVeL

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I'm so confused...

Do we not need guns because the police will protect us?

or

Are all cops racist militarized pigs?

or

Will the police and the FBI stand around and do nothing to stop a mass shooter?
 

Firecat

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we know that having guns in a society does not necessarily make a country more dangerous. The problem are the people. However, the problem is compounded when you have a country with a lot of deranged people and easy access to guns.

We still need to get to the root of why people act out violently. We know one thing for sure....mostly always males.

I lived in South Africa. Family is from there and so is my wife and I intend of going back this year for a short period. Very high crime and murder rate. I know a lot of people that are armed there. They have pretty strict gun laws however. Now, I for one wouldn’t want people there to have easier access to guns.....it would be a bloodbath IMO (and you know there is no relying on police there). I would be fine going through the rigors of getting a gun there and keep strict laws in place.
 

JCE

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Firecat;n3546950 said:
we know that having guns in a society does not necessarily make a country more dangerous. The problem are the people. However, the problem is compounded when you have a country with a lot of deranged people and easy access to guns.

We still need to get to the root of why people act out violently. We know one thing for sure....mostly always males.

I lived in South Africa. Family is from there and so is my wife and I intend of going back this year for a short period. Very high crime and murder rate. I know a lot of people that are armed there. They have pretty strict gun laws however. Now, I for one wouldn’t want people there to have easier access to guns.....it would be a bloodbath IMO (and you know there is no relying on police there). I would be fine going through the rigors of getting a gun there and keep strict laws in place.
It sounds like to me what you have is a completely failed system in the RSA. Even with some armed citizens your "deranged" people are you aptly put it have taken over. I hope it doesn't come to that here and you are 100% correct when you say we need too get the ROOT of the issue--which is people and NOT the tools. The problem is our politicians, especially on one side of the isle, refused to do so because they want to control every facet of the people's lives. So what we have is a never ending back and forth with every generation growing up being brainwashed in schools that "guns r bad mmmkay". However, this does NOT mean you punish the rest of the law abiding society for a few bad apples, and lets face it there are only a FEW who do this sort of thing. So addressing things like broken families, lack of proper raising of children, and mental health are just things that politicians aren't keen on trying to solve on either side of the party line because of "the feels" and how they will be perceived. Emotions and irrationality have taken over.
 

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JCE,
It’s much simpler than that, it’s all about the politics. Instituting a new gun law gives appearance of caring as well as giving instant political capital with the specific constituency. Things like community policing, decriminalizing drug use, community outreach and mental health reform are all long term solutions that while proven to work take way longer than any term and can’t be put on a bumper sticker.
The other thing is that writing laws is free, establishing real programs is not.
 

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prizrak;n3546956 said:
JCE,
It’s much simpler than that, it’s all about the politics. Instituting a new gun law gives appearance of caring as well as giving instant political capital with the specific constituency. Things like community policing, decriminalizing drug use, community outreach and mental health reform are all long term solutions that while proven to work take way longer than any term and can’t be put on a bumper sticker.
The other thing is that writing laws is free, establishing real programs is not.
Hit the nail on the head! Especially that last bit.
 

Firecat

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When people over here push for gun control it’s more in connection with mass shootings. Of which perpetrators have a different profile to those of general crime.

So in the RSA the issue revolves around violent crime (murder/rape) of which the perpetrators generally get away and are always out there. There are various reasons one can look at for the violence of course. But right now you just have a whole lot of people that don’t really care about taking others lives. It means nothing to them. That’s scary. They kill as if it’s second nature.

Two year ago my wife’s cousins family was murdered. A father and his son. Beaten to death with a crow bar in their house. The father was in his 80s.
 

prizrak

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Firecat;n3546973 said:
When people over here push for gun control it’s more in connection with mass shootings.
Yep and this is where I tend to call BS/hypocrisy. If you care about saving lives you go for maxium amount of lives saved. As horrific as these mass shootings are they are a tiny fraction of overall murders. Hell if anyone was really serious about saving lives, pedestrian collision avoidance technology and automated speed governors (either GPS based or by reading signs) would have been mandated 10 years ago as way more people die in cars than murdered by guns.
 

Blind_Io

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For fuck's sake, CNN. We have studied this, there is no correlation between violent video games and violent behavior. The closest we got was a study in the 1960s that showed an adult punching an inflatable clown before letting young kids try. Those who saw the adult punch the clown were more likely to do so. That's it. Nothing about video games, movies, shows, or aggression towards people. We have failed to find any correlation in 20 years of lab testing or real-world statistical studies.

Shut. The. Fuck. Up. This is my wheelhouse, goddammit, I built a career on treating violent offenders and not once has video games come into play as a cause.
 

prizrak

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I wanna know if anyone under 40 actually works for CNN. It's like they are stuck in the whole "gamers are lonely nerds who hate everyone" mentality that used to be around in the 90s. I can bet you anything that this guy played violent video games, because they fucking sell in the tens of motherfucking millions and you are more likely to find a virgin at an orgy than a guy who never played something like GTA or CoD.
 
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