Gun politics thread

I just want to post my own experiences with this. I think the gun issue at its basic form is a rights issue. My issue is not being denied the opportunity to own have a gun but the opportunity to protect my family when threatened. I recently had an issue with a family member who did a number of things that threatened the safety of my family. All at gunpoint. Until then I had never desired to own a gun and never wanted one. I was really on the fence between the issues at that point. You may have self defense training but most people don't fully understand. I definitely didn't. It took a drunk family member with an illegally obtained weapon to realize what is at stake.The world is not a stable place. It is not civilized even in civilized countries. Saying a country is civilized does not mean it's citizens are. It is ignorant to think that no guns means safety. The idealism of a utopia without guns will not prevent people from obtaining them. It might make it difficult and it may change the consequences for owning them but that isn't enough for me anymore.

On with my experience. Someone called the cops and he ran when he heard the sirens. The cops arrived and didn't even attempt to pursue him citing there "was no way they could find him at the moment." After charges were pressed they refused to confiscate his collection of guns or even investigate the issue. We were told to stop pursuing the issue. When the cops finally (persistence won) decided it was necessary to seize his weapons they only found illegal drugs, paraphernalia, and thousands of rounds of bullets. They also found empty heavy duty gun safes. At which point they didn't do anything. They let him off free without sentence because he has a child and because he has no weapons registered. They refuse to believe he owns any. What evidence do they have if they can't find an illegal weapon? What evidence do they have if there are no records? So that he could care for his child they gave him community service. Community service because he had drugs. They ignored his previous jail time, his multiple DUI convictions and his previous assault charges.

Anyway, my family had to move because of his continued threats and violence. I do not and cannot continue to believe that others will protect me or help me. Even with all the training in the world one can only do so much against those who don't follow the rules of the "civilized world." Or even one will hold your family hostage with an assault rifle. I am not saying everyone will have this experience but it opened my eyes. When my wife and I were looking to purchase a sidearm for our bedroom we were denied because I did counseling when I was a minor. 16. We were told that I should not participate in defense training anymore as it could potentially land me in jail. Because of this issue I have been told that I can no longer learn to protect myself or provide means to protect my family. Even though courts have sided with us against my homicidal brother in-law.

From a personal perspective I feel there is a lot more to this gun issue. I don't think crazy people should be allowed to have guns (and maybe the world thinks I'm crazy). But I do believe that even if I am judged to be incapable of defending myself... I can help prevent this from happening to others by defending their right to self defense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woo_Bum-kon

Hm. Where exactly do you live in terms of city/state/country?

Also, crazy people who have been so adjudicated are not legally allowed to have guns in any US state, territory or possession. Unfortunately, the reality is that they can get them anyway from non-legal channels.
 
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http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/shocking-the-guns-of-sydney/story-fn6b3v4f-1225966068919

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/uzi-submachinegun-found-in-sydney-20130202-2drec.html

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...stolen-from-home/story-e6frf7kf-1226445752667

http://multimedia.aapnewswire.com.au/Search.aspx?search="WEAPONS+SEIZURE+SYDNEY"&viewtype=Grid

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/shocking-the-guns-of-sydney/story-fn6b3v4f-1225966068919

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/uzi-submachinegun-found-in-sydney-20130202-2drec.html

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/nsw-police-seek-guns-stolen-from-home/story-e6frf7kf-1226445752667

http://multimedia.aapnewswire.com.au/Search.aspx?search=%22WEAPONS+SEIZURE+SYDNEY%22&viewtype=Grid
 
They included one of the Boston Bombers on the list. The best part is that the one they listed was not killed or even shot, let alone by police gunfire (which might tangentially support their point) but was run over by his idiot brother with an SUV. No firearms were involved in killing him. There are similarly disingenuously listed names on their lists - not just criminals but people who were not actually killed by guns.

Edit: Hey, about those assertions that 'a concealed handgun won't help if an attacker shows up with a drawn one' and 'no concealed handgun will save your life' - we have this from (reportedly) Venezuela:

 
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The best part is that the one they listed was not killed or even shot, let alone by police gunfire (which might tangentially support their point) but was run over by his idiot brother with an SUV.
I heard from a tow truck driver at the scene that it was actually a cop that ran him over, not the brother. Who knows if it's true though.
 
I heard from a tow truck driver at the scene that it was actually a cop that ran him over, not the brother. Who knows if it's true though.

It was first reported that it was a police SUV. Then it turned out that no police agency involved had black SUVs - and the only black SUV involved was the one the brother was driving. Final news report on it - brother ran him over.


Marathon bombing suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev was alive and struggling with Watertown police early Friday morning, when his younger brother and alleged co-conspirator drove over him in a stolen SUV, dragging him on the pavement and apparently inflicting the fatal injuries that killed him, said Watertown Police Chief Ed Deveau in a Globe interview.

Either way, the guy wasn't killed by gunfire and he certainly wasn't a 'gun victim.'
 
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The general public is ignorant of public speaking, politics and proper sexual conduct too. We should severely restrict their access to free speech venues, voting and intercourse too, right? :rolleyes: Same logic.

Logic involves valid reasoning: something missing in your comment.
OK, lets drill down on it. Where is your evidence for the assertion the public is ignorant of X, Y and Z? You don't have any.
Secondly (apart from AIDS and syphilis), cite some examples where ignorance of public speaking, politics or "proper sexual conduct" leads directly to death.


DC had a total gun ban. No guns for anyone not in the police.
Chicago had a total gun ban. No guns for anyone not in the police or connected to politicians.
NYC still has a de facto gun ban. No guns for anyone not in the police or connected.

None of these three allowed *any* firearms for the general public. Not revolvers, not pump shotguns, not bolt actions, not break-open over/under shotguns or single shot rifles. NOTHING.

I think *you* are the one who has no idea on what firearms restriction means.

There you go again. Using spurious and ridiculous examples from the United States. It is fruitless for NYC or Chicago to ban guns when neighbouring counties don't. Are there border guards between Illinois and Indiana, searching every vehicle for trafficked weapons? No.

And I know nothing of firearm restrictions? Try this. Five years ago a bunch of old deactivated Lee Enfield 303s were up for sale here (I think they had been used as props in a movie). Being interested in Military History and having had 2 grandfathers, a father and 2 uncles involved in the first and second world wars, I thought it might be nice to buy one and display it in the study (along with their medals and some other memorabilia that has been handed down to me). No can do. I could've purchased one, but could not display it (even in private). It would've had to be stored in a gun safe. Same goes for replicas.

We have gun control in this country (so tight it even pisses me off!), you have anarchy .... and are the one with no idea!
 
Logic involves valid reasoning: something missing in your comment.
OK, lets drill down on it. Where is your evidence for the assertion the public is ignorant of X, Y and Z? You don't have any.
Secondly (apart from AIDS and syphilis), cite some examples where ignorance of public speaking, politics or "proper sexual conduct" leads directly to death.

Judging by the popularity of self-help books and advisors/instructors in those subjects, as well as the comments of experts and professionals in those fields, there's plenty of indicators the public doesn't know crap about those subjects.

As for how lethal this lack is, well it's mighty nice of you to exclude the most blatant and obvious proof of the last, AIDS. But you forgot a few - Hepatitis B (destroys your liver, no cure) and HPV (causes cervical, anal and throat cancer, no sure cure for any of these). And yet people still have recreational sex without condoms.

Politics? Easy - everyone who voted for the Nazis in 1932. I seem to recall more than a couple people getting killed after that. Specifically, their own supporters got killed! And this was before the war.

Lack of public speaking skills being lethal? http://www.michronicleonline.com/in...-detroit-race-riots-began-on-this-day-in-1943 - one asshole makes an ill-thought public statement and 34 people got killed.

Or, more recently, this - girl screams 'unintentionally' in a public place, touches off riots that leave 56 dead.

There you go again. Using spurious and ridiculous examples from the United States. It is fruitless for NYC or Chicago to ban guns when neighbouring counties don't. Are there border guards between Illinois and Indiana, searching every vehicle for trafficked weapons? No.

NYC is an island, and they have searched vehicles coming into and out of the island as well as shipments. Hasn't helped.

For that matter, your precious little island with the precious little ban? You *still* can't keep weapons out, as your own fellow Aussie has pointed out over and over to you (but you keep ignoring). So your point does not matter, weapons will get in anyway. Even if there ARE no neighboring countries to supply it and even on a solidly 'secured' island with controlled access. It does not appear that having a neighbor nearby with loose gun laws makes any difference whatsoever.

But let's let that ride for a second. I present to you Hawaii, which is an island having no nearby 'loose control' neighbors to provide arms to smugglers. All access is controlled, as it is in Australia. Border guards, everything in or out is searched. Hawaii requires a permit to purchase a weapon, all firearms of any kind must be registered, all weapons sales or transfers must go through a dealer, have a background check, and a special permit must be issued by the police after mandatory training has occurred.

And yet...


Included in Hawaii?s thick cobweb of gun regulations are a ban on all ?assault pistols,? a mandatory permit (the application for which requires proof of safety training) and the required registration of all firearms with the Honolulu Police.

The laws are meant to keep guns out of dangerous hands and curtail violent crime. Yet they didn?t prevent the 28-year-old Toby Stangel from opening fire on five random individuals earlier this month.

According to HPD officials, Stangel was using an unregistered semiautomatic handgun. And he had already been charged in 2004 with carrying a firearm without a permit.

So, what neighboring state are you going to try to blame the non-native illegal guns in Hawaii on?

And I know nothing of firearm restrictions? Try this. Five years ago a bunch of old deactivated Lee Enfield 303s were up for sale here (I think they had been used as props in a movie). Being interested in Military History and having had 2 grandfathers, a father and 2 uncles involved in the first and second world wars, I thought it might be nice to buy one and display it in the study (along with their medals and some other memorabilia that has been handed down to me). No can do. I could've purchased one, but could not display it (even in private). It would've had to be stored in a gun safe. Same goes for replicas.

We have gun control in this country (so tight it even pisses me off!), you have anarchy .... and are the one with no idea!

Considering how easily I punched holes in your 'all of Charles Whitman's weapons are illegal in Australia" statement? No. You don't even know your own country's gun laws.

It should also be noted that people get guns inside *prisons* here in the US where literally everything going in or out is searched. Oh, wait, I already did note that and provided video evidence.

FYI, several US states will not allow you to leave even a deactivated firearm out where a child could reasonably access it, so I'm not sure why you're trying to use that as proof that your laws are more stringent. Many places in the US even ban replica firearms altogether.
 
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There you go again. Using spurious and ridiculous examples from the United States. It is fruitless for NYC or Chicago to ban guns when neighbouring counties don't. Are there border guards between Illinois and Indiana, searching every vehicle for trafficked weapons? No.
Except that in neighboring counties it is illegal to sell firearms to criminals (you know the people who are committing crimes with guns). Moreover in the case of NYC both NJ and the rest of NY have very strict gun laws as well. Both require background checks on the state level and are not exactly "show up and walk out with a gun" type of states.
We have gun control in this country (so tight it even pisses me off!), you have anarchy .... and are the one with no idea!
That has got to be the most ignorant statement I have seen you make so far. There is literally not a single place in this country where you can LEGALLY purchase a firearm without a permit and/or background check. Even the "easy" states like VT still would have to conduct a federal background check because it is required by federal law. Moreover there are many restrictions as to how one may legally own and use a firearm (varies by state).
 
GerFix: there are really two main issues pushed forward by the gun control activists: assault weapons and universal background checks. Let's start with the easy one: assault weapons. First, let's review the facts: 1) "assault weapon" is defined as a gun having a few cosmetic, not mechanical features; 2) rifles (all of them, not just assault ones) kill half as many people each year as fists and feet, a statistically insignificant number; 3) we've had an assault weapons ban before and it had no effect on violent crime.

Now, GerFix, please tell the audience why assault weapons should be banned.

Then we'll cover universal background checks afterwards.

And yes, all of this has been covered dozens of times already but the antis refuse to acknowledge facts when faced with them.
 
http://gunssavelives.net/blog/cdc-r...common-gun-carriers-less-likely-to-be-harmed/
CDC gun study says that self defense is common and gun carriers are less likely to be harmed.

That report seems to be a pretty good summary of what we know about gun violence (most of it is nothing new). The website slightly mis-characterizes the part on self defense though. The numbers regarding self defense come purely from surveys, just asking people if they have used a gun in self defense and if they think it saved lives at the time. This is obviously an inexact way to get numbers, as the report mentions (numbers ranging from 100k to 3 million, massive spread). Either way, though, at minimum, cases of self defense are about equal to cases of gun violence (not just homicides), which is a significant number.

But really that website leaves out mentioning the most important part when it comes to statistics.
Even when defensive use of guns is effective in averting death or injury for the gun user in cases of crime, it is still possible that keeping a gun in the home or carrying a gun in public --concealed or open carry-- may have a different net effect on the rate of injury. For example, if gun ownership raises the risk of suicide, homicide, or the use of weapons by those who invade the homes of gun owners, this could cancel or outweigh the beneficial effects of defensive gun use.
(Pg 16)

Basically, the report isn't ready to start waving a banner saying that guns save lives. Other factors could result in more harm than good.
 
Lots of 'ifs' and 'mays' in that last bit, no?

One of the problems with studies that have looked at whether carrying a weapon increases your chance of injury or death is that many of them (and all the ones I have read) indicate that their sample was not limited to legal concealed carry license holders. They include criminals such as drug dealers and thieves who are likely to be shot or injured in their line of work anyway whether they are (illegally) carrying or not.

The Texas DPS is going to be assembling stats to release on the 20th anniversary of legal CCW in Texas. Preliminary reports indicate that the licensed CCW population here is less likely to be murdered than the non CCW populace.
 
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Lots of 'ifs' and 'mays' in that last bit, no?

That's all you get with statistics and surveys.

The Texas DPS is going to be assembling stats to release on the 20th anniversary of legal CCW in Texas. Preliminary reports indicate that the licensed CCW population here is less likely to be murdered than the non CCW populace.

I look forward to reading it.
 
That's all you get with statistics and surveys.

With honest or quasi-honest ones, yeah, maybe. We did get some rabid and dishonest ones in the 80s and 90s; for example, there was one that stated unequivocally that having a gun meant that you were 43 times more likely to be killed by your own weapon than to ever use it in self defense. It since been blindly repeated by the media even though it has been discredited. More here: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgaga.html


I look forward to reading it.

It will be released sometime in or after 2016 - 1995 was when it passed but the first permits did not appear en masse here until 1996.
 
That report seems to be a pretty good summary of what we know about gun violence (most of it is nothing new). The website slightly mis-characterizes the part on self defense though. The numbers regarding self defense come purely from surveys, just asking people if they have used a gun in self defense and if they think it saved lives at the time. This is obviously an inexact way to get numbers, as the report mentions (numbers ranging from 100k to 3 million, massive spread). Either way, though, at minimum, cases of self defense are about equal to cases of gun violence (not just homicides), which is a significant number.

But really that website leaves out mentioning the most important part when it comes to statistics.
(Pg 16)

Basically, the report isn't ready to start waving a banner saying that guns save lives. Other factors could result in more harm than good.
Even taking all those mays sand ifs into it worst case scenario that having guns will have no significant difference in net rate of injury.
 
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