Idiots + cars = LOL

What's a fob? My Miata keys look like this:

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Once again I wonder what's wrong with needing one of these to open and start your car:
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Indeed, if it ain't broken, don't fucking fix it.....damn millenial I-crap/tesla/tech generation overcomplicating everything just for the sake of it, then not having enough understanding to comprehend their own crap, thus shit like that happens.

I swear to God if those people still relied on horses they would all be dead in a week.
 
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This dude didn't even bring the key, hence going back to get it. The phone is meant to use in emergencies when keys are forgotten.

See in my cars if I don't bring the key, I don't get into car :p Seems like a very simple way to ensure people have their keys :p

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Assuming the story is true, the implementation by Tesla is dumb. It illustrates a typical error of "internet of things" devices, and one that is put in on purpose most times, I suspect.

Having a device communicate to another device via internet and even worse via central servers operated by a company is idiotic when the two devices are on the same home network or (as in this case) in Bluetooth/WiFi range of each other. This has no advantages to the customer and only opens up error possibilities caused by network outage (as in this case) or even perma-death to the device the customer paid for when the company goes out of business or simply decides not to support a product anymore and shuts down the server.

In this particular case, there is another thing wrong with the implementation: The phone acts as a substitute keyfob - but not at all times. Thus encouraging customers to leave the fob at home despite the distinct possibility of driving somewhere without cell phone coverage.

Again, assuming the story is true, the idiocy lies more at Tesla than by the customer. The customer just bought into the "use your phone instead of a dedicated key" convenience story sold by Tesla without checking how it actually works. Then again, I don't know how detailed the customer information given by Tesla on that subject is.
It's typical silicone valley idiocy, I have had that issue with a lot of apps on my phone, namely games. Up until recently there was absolutely no cell service in the underground sections of the subway (now all stations have it but not tunnels) yet plenty of games require an always on connection even in single player... They live in a bubble where not having cell/internet is just not a thing that happens and you get this dumb shit.

As far as BT/Wi-Fi, it's harder than a simple internet connected app because it requires an extra step by the customer to hook up to BT/Wi-Fi.

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Indeed, if it ain't broken, don't fucking fix it.....damn millenial I-crap/tesla/tech generation overcomplicating everything just for the sake of it, then not having enough understanding to comprehend their own crap, thus shit like that happens.

I swear to God if those people still relied on horses they would all be dead in a week.

I would say about the only thing I would like about proximity keys is ability to open liftgate by waving your foot under it.
 
I may hate my keyless fob and start button in my Charger but I will never not have my fob with me.
I love my keyless fobs. I like the shape of the Mazda key better, but prefer the functionality of the Porsche one. Neither of these, though, have a start button. Both cars still use what looks & feels like the normal key in tumbler interface, just using a plastic stand-in instead of an actual key there. I prefer that to a start button - I can easily choose off/lock, ACC, on, or start, just as with a key, without having to learn how this car's start button engages those settings. Both also have a physical key as backup, in the fob, that I could pull out and use if needed. It's so convenient to not have to actually get the key to the car out of my bag or wherever I've left it, and instead just walk up and go.

The idea of not having a back-up, just in case that's the time the battery dies, seems dumb. In the case of the Tesla with phone, what if, instead of a signal problem, something had gone wrong on the phone and it had run out of battery or the app had corrupted?
 
Assuming the story is true, the implementation by Tesla is dumb. It illustrates a typical error of "internet of things" devices, and one that is put in on purpose most times, I suspect.

Having a device communicate to another device via internet and even worse via central servers operated by a company is idiotic when the two devices are on the same home network or (as in this case) in Bluetooth/WiFi range of each other. This has no advantages to the customer and only opens up error possibilities caused by network outage (as in this case) or even perma-death to the device the customer paid for when the company goes out of business or simply decides not to support a product anymore and shuts down the server.

In this particular case, there is another thing wrong with the implementation: The phone acts as a substitute keyfob - but not at all times. Thus encouraging customers to leave the fob at home despite the distinct possibility of driving somewhere without cell phone coverage.

Again, assuming the story is true, the idiocy lies more at Tesla than by the customer. The customer just bought into the "use your phone instead of a dedicated key" convenience story sold by Tesla without checking how it actually works. Then again, I don't know how detailed the customer information given by Tesla on that subject is.

Very well thought out post here. I definitely agree with just about every word. I still believe there is a culpability with the owner of the car because you should always have a backup when you are forced to use technology--and in this case that being just put the keyfob in your pocket. Several of my fellow Charger owners leave their fob in their car whilst parked in the garage at night. What would happen if you accidentally locked the doors before you got out? No way inside the vehicle--and that wouldn't be the fault of the automaker but the bloke who left the fob in their car yes? I also want to say that intelligently Chrysler actually put a keyhole on the door and a key in the fob just in case your battery dies and or proximity unlock doesn't work.

I love my keyless fobs. I like the shape of the Mazda key better, but prefer the functionality of the Porsche one. Neither of these, though, have a start button. Both cars still use what looks & feels like the normal key in tumbler interface, just using a plastic stand-in instead of an actual key there. I prefer that to a start button - I can easily choose off/lock, ACC, on, or start, just as with a key, without having to learn how this car's start button engages those settings. Both also have a physical key as backup, in the fob, that I could pull out and use if needed. It's so convenient to not have to actually get the key to the car out of my bag or wherever I've left it, and instead just walk up and go.

The idea of not having a back-up, just in case that's the time the battery dies, seems dumb. In the case of the Tesla with phone, what if, instead of a signal problem, something had gone wrong on the phone and it had run out of battery or the app had corrupted?

Your Porsche fob looks fucking brilliant, wish mine had the silhouette of my Charger. :D Maybe I need to clarify, my fob doesn't have a start button, I was referring to the one on the dashboard. :) While I have a physical key in my "keyless fob" to open the door I do not have a spot inside to start the car with it. I assume this is because if you needed the key to get in the door chances are your battery is dead anyway so trying to start it is pointless. Unfortunately I never had a choice here, I prefer the old fashioned physical key myself and that wasn't an option. I suspect the physical key is likely nearly doomed to exist on new vehicles soon.

And you're spot on about the last bit.
 
As far as BT/Wi-Fi, it's harder than a simple internet connected app because it requires an extra step by the customer to hook up to BT/Wi-Fi.

Not necessarily. When unlocking and starting the car via phone in this case, car and phone could have connected with each other automatically - authenticating/authorizing once via the cloud service, leaving the direct connection there for longer.

Apart from that, I'm sure you'd have your phone paired to your car's bluetooth anyway. Re-authenticating a phone that recently remote-started the car wouldn't be a big step to implement.

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While I have a physical key in my "keyless fob" to open the door I do not have a spot inside to start the car with it. I assume this is because if you needed the key to get in the door chances are your battery is dead anyway so trying to start it is pointless.

There's the reverse scenario, car is charged but key is dead. You can unlock with the physical key, and most likely start by holding the fob close to the button or a marked location for the traditional RFID-style immobilizer chip to be read by the car - no fob battery needed.

...at least that's how it is on all starter button VAGs.
 
I think the main issue here is the damn thing just turning off when you exit the drivers seat with it in P. I get it, it's a cool party trick (look ma no buttons!!!) but it's 100% not necessary.

It's an electric car so it's not like it'll emit chemicals that'll kill ya if you did leave it on in your garage.

Just put a nicely finished (hell it could be real aluminum or carbon fiber...) Start/Stop button on the dash and shit like this is less likely to happen.
Very well thought out post here. I definitely agree with just about every word. I still believe there is a culpability with the owner of the car because you should always have a backup when you are forced to use technology--and in this case that being just put the keyfob in your pocket. Several of my fellow Charger owners leave their fob in their car whilst parked in the garage at night. What would happen if you accidentally locked the doors before you got out? No way inside the vehicle--and that wouldn't be the fault of the automaker but the bloke who left the fob in their car yes? I also want to say that intelligently Chrysler actually put a keyhole on the door and a key in the fob just in case your battery dies and or proximity unlock doesn't work.



Your Porsche fob looks fucking brilliant, wish mine had the silhouette of my Charger. :D Maybe I need to clarify, my fob doesn't have a start button, I was referring to the one on the dashboard. :) While I have a physical key in my "keyless fob" to open the door I do not have a spot inside to start the car with it. I assume this is because if you needed the key to get in the door chances are your battery is dead anyway so trying to start it is pointless. Unfortunately I never had a choice here, I prefer the old fashioned physical key myself and that wasn't an option. I suspect the physical key is likely nearly doomed to exist on new vehicles soon.

And you're spot on about the last bit.
To start yours with a dead/nearly dead battery you push the button with the end of the fob or hold the fob near the button while pushing the button.

Some brands have the short range antenna placed in a console cubby or a dedicated slot in the dash that you can shove the dead key in...So in those you'd put the fob in the cubby or the slot in the dash then push the button.
 
It's typical silicone valley idiocy, I have had that issue with a lot of apps on my phone, namely games. Up until recently there was absolutely no cell service in the underground sections of the subway (now all stations have it but not tunnels) yet plenty of games require an always on connection even in single player... They live in a bubble where not having cell/internet is just not a thing that happens and you get this dumb shit.

Thats not just mobile games. A bunch of single player PC and console games also need an always on connection for some god unknown reason (developers claim anti-piracy).

As far as BT/Wi-Fi, it's harder than a simple internet connected app because it requires an extra step by the customer to hook up to BT/Wi-Fi.

As narf said, more likely than not, your phone is already paired to the car. Even Teslas use BT for handsfree calling.

I would say about the only thing I would like about proximity keys is ability to open liftgate by waving your foot under it.

Didn't appreciate this until I had a Lincoln MKX for an overnight evaluation and had to do some grocery shopping. I do like keyless unlock and lock too.

I love my keyless fobs. I like the shape of the Mazda key better, but prefer the functionality of the Porsche one. Neither of these, though, have a start button.

Maybe I need to clarify, my fob doesn't have a start button.

Its not the start button that is the problem, its the implementation. Most Ford products now have remote start on the fob, but if you start the motor to warm your car up, you can't actually drive anywhere until you get into the car and hit the start button. And you can't hit the start button unless the key is inside the car. You can start the car then remove the key and drive off, however, as soon as the key is outside, the cluster gives you a "no key detected" warning, so hopefully you realize something is wrong and don't drive away. Ford is rolling out (already rolled out? I'm not sure) an app that lets you remote start your car and lock/unlock the doors, and while I haven't played around with it yet (it won't work with my Mustang), I'm sure it still will require the physical fob to be in the car for you to drive.

I actually know some people who leave their keys in the car at all times and just use the keypad on the door to lock/unlock their cars. I do think thats also silly because if your battery dies, you're SOL since your key is in the car and you can't get in to pop the hood to jump it. Also all it would take to steal the car is breaking one window.

There's the reverse scenario, car is charged but key is dead. You can unlock with the physical key, and most likely start by holding the fob close to the button or a marked location for the traditional RFID-style immobilizer chip to be read by the car - no fob battery needed.

...at least that's how it is on all starter button VAGs.

Fords have the same thing. Except the problem is that most customers don't know about this functionality, or where the special location is (in most cases at the bottom of the center console).



Oh Finalgear, where 1 picture making fun of an idiot turns into multiple pages of discussion. Never change.
 
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I think the main issue here is the damn thing just turning off when you exit the drivers seat with it in P. I get it, it's a cool party trick (look ma no buttons!!!) but it's 100% not necessary.

It's an electric car so it's not like it'll emit chemicals that'll kill ya if you did leave it on in your garage.

I see the point of straight shutting off the car actually, a friend of mine constantly forgets to turn her Prius off when parked. In this case the dude (or chick) closed the door behind them, I think that's pretty logical for the car to assume "hey i'm parked can turn off now"
 
Thats not just mobile games. A bunch of single player PC and console games also need an always on connection for some god unknown reason (developers claim anti-piracy).
While stupid for many different reasons, at least it is reasonable to expect a working internet connection on a PC/Console. A mobile device that can go places with no network (especially say a wi-fi only tablet) it's not. That's not even getting into the whole data plans shit
 
There's the reverse scenario, car is charged but key is dead. You can unlock with the physical key, and most likely start by holding the fob close to the button or a marked location for the traditional RFID-style immobilizer chip to be read by the car - no fob battery needed.

...at least that's how it is on all starter button VAGs.

To start yours with a dead/nearly dead battery you push the button with the end of the fob or hold the fob near the button while pushing the button.

Some brands have the short range antenna placed in a console cubby or a dedicated slot in the dash that you can shove the dead key in...So in those you'd put the fob in the cubby or the slot in the dash then push the button.

WTF, this is actually a good idea then. Any idea where it is on my Charger? And you're sure I can start the car by putting the end of the key on the button? :?

Its not the start button that is the problem, its the implementation. Most Ford products now have remote start on the fob, but if you start the motor to warm your car up, you can actually drive anywhere until you get into the car and hit the start button. And you can't hit the start button unless the key is inside the car. You can start the car then remove the key and drive off, however, as soon as the key is outside, the cluster gives you a "no key detected" warning, so hopefully you realize something is wrong and don't drive away. Ford is rolling out (already rolled out? I'm not sure) an app that lets you remote start your car and lock/unlock the doors, and while I haven't played around with it yet (it won't work with my Mustang), I'm sure it still will require the physical fob to be in the car for you to drive.

I actually know some people who leave their keys in the car at all times and just use the keypad on the door to lock/unlock their cars. I do think thats also silly because if your battery dies, you're SOL since your key is in the car and you can't get in to pop the hood to jump it. Also all it would take to steal the car is breaking one window.

My Charger's engine is still running when I get out if I have the fob in my pocket (to get the mail, run in to the house, etc)...no idea if you could drive it away though. I might test this with my wife to see if its possible and how far you can get. I'm genuinely curious. :lol:

This is all funny though, my wife's Jeep Renegade has no proximity this, or push button start that and that does make it a bit more annoying to drive. Total shock I've got so used to the keyless thing that I'd ever say that. But I chalk this up to not having a rumbling V8 or howling Italian V6 making pleasant noises after firing up. Something about turning a physical key and waking up a sleeping brilliant large engine--something my old 90 Camaro V8 did. It is just unbelievably intoxicating. :mrgreen:
 
My Charger's engine is still running when I get out if I have the fob in my pocket (to get the mail, run in to the house, etc)...no idea if you could drive it away though. I might test this with my wife to see if its possible and how far you can get.
As far as I know, you can drive away. As soon as the engine is running, it is running - because it would be unsafe to just switch it off. As soon as you switch off the engine, it can't be started again without the key present. That's the standard practice as I know it.
 
As far as I know, you can drive away. As soon as the engine is running, it is running - because it would be unsafe to just switch it off. As soon as you switch off the engine, it can't be started again without the key present. That's the standard practice as I know it.

Yup, exactly this.
 
I see the point of straight shutting off the car actually, a friend of mine constantly forgets to turn her Prius off when parked. In this case the dude (or chick) closed the door behind them, I think that's pretty logical for the car to assume "hey i'm parked can turn off now"

But that goes against how every other car operates. It's an expected norm/assumption that if you need to adjust something that fell in back seat or whatever that you could pull over, pop it in park, do what you need to do and keep moving.

Because the car is still on. It's not a matter of door open/closed...Teslas turn off when your weight is off the driver's seat. It's fucking stupid. Even if he would have left the door open, like one might if they were doing something super quick in the back, the car would have shut off.

Its not the start button that is the problem, its the implementation. Most Ford products now have remote start on the fob, but if you start the motor to warm your car up, you can actually drive anywhere until you get into the car and hit the start button. And you can't hit the start button unless the key is inside the car. You can start the car then remove the key and drive off, however, as soon as the key is outside, the cluster gives you a "no key detected" warning, so hopefully you realize something is wrong and don't drive away. Ford is rolling out (already rolled out? I'm not sure) an app that lets you remote start your car and lock/unlock the doors, and while I haven't played around with it yet (it won't work with my Mustang), I'm sure it still will require the physical fob to be in the car for you to drive.

I actually know some people who leave their keys in the car at all times and just use the keypad on the door to lock/unlock their cars. I do think thats also silly because if your battery dies, you're SOL since your key is in the car and you can't get in to pop the hood to jump it. Also all it would take to steal the car is breaking one window.



Fords have the same thing. Except the problem is that most customers don't know about this functionality, or where the special location is (in most cases at the bottom of the center console).



Oh Finalgear, where 1 picture making fun of an idiot turns into multiple pages of discussion. Never change.

I glossed over the whole "remote start" thing. :hmm: You're right, they implemented it totally wrong.

It's final gear, what did you expect. :lol:

WTF, this is actually a good idea then. Any idea where it is on my Charger? And you're sure I can start the car by putting the end of the key on the button? :? :mrgreen:

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That's the excerpt from the owners manual. On older Chrysler products with Keyless Enter & Go, they used the same FOBIK as vehicles without it:

fqYABvk.jpg


On these, you could actually pry off the Start/Stop button in the dash, then stick the FOBIK in the hole and turn it like you would if the car didn't have Keyless Enter & Go. This method was the backup plan for those vehicles.
 
Another backup is the real key in the fob. If you slid that latch on the key below trunk (monkey) button, you also had a real key to get inside if needed.
 
Another backup is the real key in the fob. If you slid that latch on the key below trunk (monkey) button, you also had a real key to get inside if needed.

Correct, but you couldn't/can't use that metal key to start the vehicle, just to get inside it.
 
Maybe I need to clarify, my fob doesn't have a start button, I was referring to the one on the dashboard. :)
I assumed you meant a start button on the dash. I don't like them. I'd rather have the familiar "turn a thing" interface, since it's what's been around for a while and works fine. I haven't found a benefit to start buttons that makes them worthwhile, yet.

While I have a physical key in my "keyless fob" to open the door I do not have a spot inside to start the car with it. I assume this is because if you needed the key to get in the door chances are your battery is dead anyway so trying to start it is pointless.
Ah, both my "advanced" fobs have a way to start the car even when the fob battery is dead. The keys plug into the car, one way or another. I took photos of the Mazda's interface, first with the plastic stand-in that's used normally, and then with the physical "backup" key partially inserted. The Mazda, at least, will happily run on just the backup key, even if I leave the body of the fob at home (maybe the RFID/whatever functionality is in the physical key instead of the main fob body). That's actually part of why I like the "turn a thing" interface: the place where I need to insert the backup key is immediately obvious - it's the place I turn the fob to start the car. IMO, this sort of thing is the best of both worlds. You get "keyless" functionality when you want it, but have the physical key, fully functional, if needed.
 
I assumed you meant a start button on the dash. I don't like them. I'd rather have the familiar "turn a thing" interface, since it's what's been around for a while and works fine. I haven't found a benefit to start buttons that makes them worthwhile, yet.

Ah, both my "advanced" fobs have a way to start the car even when the fob battery is dead. The keys plug into the car, one way or another. I took photos of the Mazda's interface, first with the plastic stand-in that's used normally, and then with the physical "backup" key partially inserted. The Mazda, at least, will happily run on just the backup key, even if I leave the body of the fob at home (maybe the RFID/whatever functionality is in the physical key instead of the main fob body). That's actually part of why I like the "turn a thing" interface: the place where I need to insert the backup key is immediately obvious - it's the place I turn the fob to start the car. IMO, this sort of thing is the best of both worlds. You get "keyless" functionality when you want it, but have the physical key, fully functional, if needed.

On the 2015 Mazda 3, there is short-range RFID chip in the fub that gets activated by something just behind the start button. If the battery in the fob goes dead, you press the button WITH the fob, and it'll start. (at least that's what 2 different salespeople told me).

Getting in to the car is just a matter of sliding out the back "cap" of the fob to reveal a hidden physical key.
 
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