If you had the power, how would you force/convince people to downsize their cars?

2Billion

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I would have to agree with 2Billion on this one. There are companies that make nothing but enthusiast cars, Caterham, Ariel, Lotus (well they got a GT car now). Then you got mainstream companies that make sports cars so you got the Nissan Zs the Hyundai Genesis.

The thing that Spectre and I were talking about is that if gov't removed safety regulations from cars things like the Z, Genesis Coupe, Stang and so on could be made much lighter and allow for us ENTHUSIASTS to enjoy them w/o actually hindering the rest of the population. Would also likely bring down the prices for those cars.
I actually prefer a car needing to be a kit car in order to bypass safety regs. Makes sure you're serious if you've got to build it, even just a tiny little bit of it, yourself. While I can see a dumbass buying a stripped out Z and crashing it into my house, building something like a Caterham kind of scares off the dumbasses and keeps the car in the hands of someone who is serious about driving.

But that's my own odd impression of these things.
 

prizrak

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I actually prefer a car needing to be a kit car in order to bypass safety regs. Makes sure you're serious if you've got to build it, even just a tiny little bit of it, yourself. While I can see a dumbass buying a stripped out Z and crashing it into my house, building something like a Caterham kind of scares off the dumbasses and keeps the car in the hands of someone who is serious about driving.

But that's my own odd impression of these things.
For one a dumbass is a dumbass, I've driven a 350 Z and if you don't know what you are doing you will crash into something despite traction control. We all seen plenty of pictures/videos of people crashing regular cars into shit so I don't think it will do anything.

For two a Caterham starts at just under 30K, that's without engine and tranny, as awesome as those things are they are just too expensive. Registering a kit can also be a huge pain because some states only have limited number of registrations*.

The point of unregulated/stripped out sports cars would be to decrease cost. Manufacturers can make them as stripped out as they want and then charge out the ass for all the extras, this way the enthusiasts get the cars they want for less money and posers pay for cars that are slower but have more toys.

*read somewhere long ago could be wrong
 

edkwon

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Not everyone likes the same thing. I like small cars, it doesn't mean everyone should be forced to drive them.
Just to play devil's advocate, so you tolerate and accept the wants of others who drive the market towards bigger and heavier cars, and by 'you' I don't mean 'you Aratoga' but the collective 'you'.
 

Spectre

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Just to play devil's advocate, so you tolerate and accept the wants of others who drive the market towards bigger and heavier cars, and by 'you' I don't mean 'you Aratoga' but the collective 'you'.
Well, on days like today in Dallas, something with a long wheel base that weighs as much as a small moon comes in handy - weight/mass = traction in snow.
 

argatoga

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Just to play devil's advocate, so you tolerate and accept the wants of others who drive the market towards bigger and heavier cars, and by 'you' I don't mean 'you Aratoga' but the collective 'you'.
I have no problem with it. There are still companies that cater to making small cars and there always will be. I see no reason to restrict the freedom of other to have big cars due to my own preferences.
 

2Billion

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Well, on days like today in Dallas, something with a long wheel base that weighs as much as a small moon comes in handy - weight/mass = traction in snow.
You know about as much about driving in the snow as Elton John knows about pleasuring women.
 

Spectre

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You know about as much about driving in the snow as Elton John knows about pleasuring women.
Unfortunately for you...

In a 1976 Rolling Stone interview, he talked about bisexuality, his belief that everyone is bisexual to a degree, and that his first sexual experience was with a woman, the secretary Linda Woodrow to whom he proposed, and who is mentioned in the song "Someone Saved My Life Tonight".
And if my assertion is not so, why would you add weight to the back of a RWD car to increase traction, hm?
 

katwalk

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You know about as much about driving in the snow as Elton John knows about pleasuring women.
It's true though. My bloated VW is as good in the snow as moms outback.
 

thedguy

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Unfortunately for you...
And if my assertion is not so, why would you add weight to the back of a RWD car to increase traction, hm?
I will say this much...

When I lived in MO, my brothers 318is did damn well in the snow, surprising the shit out of our friends climbing snow/ice covered hills their 4wd pickups had trouble with. One of the women we worked with had an e36 328 convertible and traded it for a new (FWD) Volvo thinking it would be better in the winter... she missed the BMW as it was more sure footed, even in the snow.
 

edkwon

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I have no problem with it. There are still companies that cater to making small cars and there always will be. I see no reason to restrict the freedom of other to have big cars due to my own preferences.
That's good, unfortunately it seems the majority of people here don't share your open minded and practical views.

That was non sarcastic btw.
 

2Billion

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Unfortunately for you...



And if my assertion is not so, why would you add weight to the back of a RWD car to increase traction, hm?
Actually, from experience - you don't have this, what you call "snow" in Texas doesn't count - a light car actually works a lot better in snow because it doesn't sink down as far. A heavier vehicle sinks down further and is more likely to get hung up on snow, while a light vehicle bounces above. Having driven in real snow, unlike some people, light cars are much better overall - best car for deep snow I've ever driven was an '80s Honda, it would bound over drifts like a gazelle, while a heavy vehicle would get hung up and stuck.

Now, what you're referring to is performance on ice - snow and ice are two entirely different things to drive on - and you're less wrong about that but you do lack a basic understanding of the forces at play. You want the majority of the weight distributed over the drive wheels for the best traction. That's why you put sandbags in a (heavy) truck. That's why Beetles, 911s and Corvairs have always been remarkably good in winter (they're really all light, but the weight is where it needs to be) and why FWD vehicles tend to do better on ice as well. Still, it's usually only pickup trucks that do really badly on ice, since they're designed to have mostly front biased weight distribution for obvious reasons.

From experience, a light FWD car will outperform a heavy RWD full size truck any day. The ideal vehicle is probably an AWD SUV in a more compact package for the ground clearance that affords - the Jeep XJ Cherokee is probably perfect, if driven by people who realize this who will, invariably, get it stuck in a field while trying to show it off.

Seriously, you're trying to go against someone from Saskatchewan about driving in snow? I have more snow in my back yard than has fallen in all of Texas in the past year. You're out of your depth.

Also, Elton John was desperately trying to squelch gay rumours in 1979. Next thing you know you'll say George Michael loves monogamy and titties, he wrote a song about that too!
 

Spectre

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Also, Elton John was desperately trying to squelch gay rumours in 1979. Next thing you know you'll say George Michael loves monogamy and titties, he wrote a song about that too!
Interesting, since he came 'out of the closet' in 1976.

Actually, from experience - you don't have this, what you call "snow" in Texas doesn't count - a light car actually works a lot better in snow because it doesn't sink down as far. A heavier vehicle sinks down further and is more likely to get hung up on snow, while a light vehicle bounces above. Having driven in real snow, unlike some people, light cars are much better overall - best car for deep snow I've ever driven was an '80s Honda, it would bound over drifts like a gazelle, while a heavy vehicle would get hung up and stuck.

Now, what you're referring to is performance on ice - snow and ice are two entirely different things to drive on - and you're less wrong about that but you do lack a basic understanding of the forces at play. You want the majority of the weight distributed over the drive wheels for the best traction. That's why you put sandbags in a (heavy) truck. That's why Beetles, 911s and Corvairs have always been remarkably good in winter (they're really all light, but the weight is where it needs to be) and why FWD vehicles tend to do better on ice as well. Still, it's usually only pickup trucks that do really badly on ice, since they're designed to have mostly front biased weight distribution for obvious reasons.

From experience, a light FWD car will outperform a heavy RWD full size truck any day. The ideal vehicle is probably an AWD SUV in a more compact package for the ground clearance that affords - the Jeep XJ Cherokee is probably perfect, if driven by people who realize this who will, invariably, get it stuck in a field while trying to show it off.

Seriously, you're trying to go against someone from Saskatchewan about driving in snow? I have more snow in my back yard than has fallen in all of Texas in the past year. You're out of your depth
The major problem here is that you're making the assumption that I learned to drive on snow here in Texas. This is false; I mentioned this before, but apparently you didn't see it. I learned to drive on snow in a little place called Park City, Utah. I have a friend with a home there and I used to spend quite a bit of time in that area having fun on snowmobiles. I commend this link to your attention so that you can see what the average monthly snowfalls are there. If I recall, isn't that more than the capital of Saskatchewan, Regina, gets?

I am not disputing that you indeed have the skills to handle snow and that you are likely better at it than I am (I would be an idiot if I did), but I am presenting my point of view and the point of view of the UT natives that taught me. Their view was that a light car works fine until you get high centered on some of the packed crap in between the tire ruts on the road left by larger vehicles. Then you're stuck and you don't have the mass to break down the ice pile. The natives' vehicles of choice in Park City are not (or weren't as of 2003) light Subarus or AWD VWs, they're heavy 4x4 metal like Grand Wagoneers and Blazers/Tahoes, and I have been present multiple times when said light cars had to be pulled off the center ice 'island' by the heavier trucks. Many of the old timers go so far as to add additionalweight to the front and rear of the truck for better traction, even with sandbags already inside for rear ballast. The heavier vehicles sink through the snow to the road surface below and can get traction that way, while using their power and mass to bash through/crush the snow ahead of them.
 
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2Billion

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Yes, he was so out of the closet he married a woman to hush up the rumours. In 1984. And gave an interview saying "okay I'm a little gay but I still love women!" That's not out of the closet. That's being caught in the closet and making up an excuse for being in there.

That's an aside really, when this is mostly about how you don't know what you're talking about. Now, Utah is a snowy area. However, from your statements your 'expertise' does not come from having driven there once, but from half understood statements by other people. By contrast, I drive on snow and ice daily. I spent three winters in Saskatoon with their... unique approach to residential snow removal. I've driven through uncleared back roads in every type of car available to me, which admittedly doesn't include much rear engined but does include FWD, RWD and AWD vehicles of a wide description. I know what works, I know what doesn't.

You see a snowbank once and declare yourself an expert. I live with the stuff every day. I know more about snow than you.
 

Spectre

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Half understood statements by other people? Perhaps, but unlikely.

Helping to dig people in light AWD cars out of the snow and towing them out of trouble for five winters (off and on)? Yes. I'll leave it at that - and while I will not concede that you are correct, I will say that you do what works for you, and I'll do what works for me and the people who taught me. It certainly wasn't 'just one snowbank' and it wasn't just a week or so worth of driving. Or just some half-heard statements (as my poor self-volunteered snow driving tutors would agree, I asked them questions until the cows came home, and was quite terrible for some time.)
 
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Rossco

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Speaking of big cars and snow, I will say that big cars, specifically wide cars are a at a disadvantage in heavy New England winters.

We already have failtacularly narrow, roads in this region. Which will most likely not get widened due to budgets, eco-mentalists, and NIMBY's. The accumulation of snow, this winter, has led to these roads being so narrow, that one car has to pull over to let an oncoming vehicle go. And by "pull over" I mean drive into a snowbank.

Such was the case today, as I was driving down one of these narrow, snowy streets. I was approaching an intersection, just about to enter a main road, when suddenly an Audi A3 entered this narrow street, and was coming toward me. Seeing as the Audi driver was being, well, an Audi driver, I had to "pull over" into the snowbank for him. That was the closest I've been to becoming stuck this year. I can only imagine what it would have happened if we were both driving larger vehicles.
 

Cowboy

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I'd just like to say that if people like me didn't drive big vehicles your small cars wouldn't be small. It's all relative hahaha
How hard would it be to get one of those 100+ton quarrytrucks streetlegal? :p
 
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