If you had the power, how would you force/convince people to downsize their cars?

prizrak

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:no: even a diesel A8 with four adults will struggle to be that heavy. 4900lbs is way over the B6 A4's maximum gross weight, it's just over 4400lbs.
Don't argue with me about my car....
This is a picture of a plaque that is on the car itself. I'm not sure if GVWR is vehicle + all possible cargo it can carry or not but even then my model is around 3600lbs curb (I think manual is around 3400lbs curb).....


To add to that first car I ever actually got to drive on regular basis was a 98 Century, a normal midsize sedan no bigger than my A4. It was rated at a bit over 3300lbs curb. It would be JUST under the 3500lb requirement with a standard driver analogue. Add to it the new safety equipment standards and you will be hitting that 3500lbs ceiling very easily.
 
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Spectre

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Okay, fine, you CAN get a Camry under that number. But most people in the US wouldn't be able to drive it, most people wouldn't want it and it'll be a pretty horrible car. If the government mandates the addition of anything new or you add any options, it will be over the weight spec given.

I fail to see how the fact that you can get a stripper Camry to weigh less than 3500lbs makes this a good idea.

Don't argue with me about my car....
This is a picture of a plaque that is on the car itself, I weigh 220lbs you can add the weight together...
[/IMG]
Erm.. GVWR is the maximum weight that the vehicle is rated to carry, not the curb weight.

Or do you want to argue about that too, Narf?
 
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katwalk

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Even with the convertible strengthening crap and me in it my car is still under 3500, so I don't think that would be an unreasonable target for at least the smaller sedans. It doesn't really matter what they weigh NOW anyway does it? The government puts out ridiculous mpg targets and expects companies to shoot for them so why not do it with weight? :dunno:
Also the you can't drive older cars thing isn't a good argument because those cars don't meet today's safety or fuel standards but since they are grandfathered in the rules do not apply.
 

prizrak

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Erm.. GVWR is the maximum weight that the vehicle is rated to carry, not the curb weight.
I never said it was curb. Narf claimed that GVWR for the B6 A4 is 4400lbs, which as you can see is untrue... Also car can only carry about 1100lbs or so (need to check the sticker don't remember off the top of my head) so we are still talking 3500lbs curb weight, no driver (me) in it...
It doesn't really matter what they weigh NOW anyway does it? The government puts out ridiculous mpg targets and expects companies to shoot for them so why not do it with weight?
Simple, money. Light weight materials that can still meet safety ratings are VERY expensive. In Audi world the A8 is pretty much the only car that uses aluminum extensively in its structure and its what a $90,000 vehicle?
Even with the convertible strengthening crap and me in it my car is still under 3500,
Your car is STUPID heavy for its size but you have to remember its a small car.
 
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narf

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I fail to see how the fact that you can get a stripper Camry to weigh less than 3500lbs makes this a good idea.
I have already said that I'm not arguing for the idea of these weight limits.



Yes was going to say that exact same thing, my car with me in it is like 4900lbs, it is hardly big....
Don't argue with me about my car....
This is a picture of a plaque that is on the car itself, I weigh 220lbs you can add the weight together...
I'm afraid I'll have to argue about your car again, sorry :dunno:

If you in your car make it weigh 4900lbs then you should get a lorry to haul your butt around instead, you're well over both the US and German maximum gross weight rating for that car.

Audi says a 2003 1.8T quattro is 3218lbs German curb weight (all liquids, 90% tank, 75kg driver, spare wheel, tools). Dunno if the US version is heavier, but there would be 202kg for the driver before it gets over 3500lbs. As long as any US version weight penalty is below 100kg you'd be fine with yourself and your fueled car under 3500lbs.




I never said it was curb.
Uhm, yeah you kinda did.

Yes was going to say that exact same thing, my car with me in it is like 4900lbs, it is hardly big....
Car + driver should be roughly curb weight, not maximum gross weight... unless you want to force me to make American size jokes again.



Also, http://www.audi.de/etc/medialib/ngw/product/used_cars/a4/pdf/a4b6.Par.0027.File.pdf/2003_03_a4_b6_18t.pdf
 
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prizrak

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Uhm, yeah you kinda did.
Car + driver should be roughly curb weight, not maximum gross weight... unless you want to force me to make American size jokes again.
Didn't make myself clear my bad. Also it seems that I had the wrong definition of curb weight, as I always understood it as car sans fluids. I accept that fail as mine and mine only.
I'm afraid I'll have to argue about your car again, sorry
You SPECIFICALLY said that GVWR for the B6 A4 is 4400lbs, it's not...
Audi says a 2003 1.8T quattro is 3218lbs German curb weight (all liquids, 90% tank, 75kg driver, spare wheel, tools). Dunno if the US version is heavier, but there would be 202kg for the driver before it gets over 3500lbs. As long as any US version weight penalty is below 100kg you'd be fine with yourself and your fueled car under 3500lbs.
2003 is a B5 generation, I have the B6 generation.

Weights: curb weight (lbs) 3,550

EDIT: In case you care I weigh 220lbs...
 
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narf

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Didn't make myself clear my bad. Also it seems that I had the wrong definition of curb weight, as I always understood it as car sans fluids. I accept that fail as mine and mine only.
Even with a wrong definition of curb weight, how do you arrive at 4900lbs?

You SPECIFICALLY said that GVWR for the B6 A4 is 4400lbs, it's not...
For the German B6 A4 that's the case. See my Audi pdf for reference. American versions may be heavier, as I stated above. Still not as heavy to have a weight of car+driver of 4900lbs.

2003 is a B5 generation, I have the B6 generation.
The B6 started in 2001. My link references data for the B6, model year 2003. Here it is again: http://www.audi.de/etc/medialib/ngw/product/used_cars/a4/pdf/a4b6.Par.0027.File.pdf/2003_03_a4_b6_18t.pdf


For more reference, a friggin Taurus with a large driver still is hundreds of pounds below 4900lbs. An F150 would be roughly right at 4900lbs including large driver.
 
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prizrak

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Even with a wrong definition of curb weight, how do you arrive at 4900lbs?
Simple, I assumed GVWR was vehicle + all fluids. Add a 200lbs drive on top of the GVWR and tell me what the weight is.

The B6 started in 2001
Ooops wires crossed was thinking the S4, which we only got 04/05 on the B6 platform.

Regardless of some of my fails 3500lbs is not a feasible cut off for a typical family sedan as even my fairly small car is above that weight. Keep in mind that average size of the midsize sedan went up from 05+, if you compare the current A4 to the old A6 you will see they are nearly the same size. The Japanese are also around the same size and weight. This is base models we are talking here so anyone with a V6 and some options will be going into CDL territory very quickly.

EDIT: @narf, keep in mind that A8 uses mostly aluminum for its structure keeping the weight down despite being a very large vehicle.
 
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narf

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Simple, I assumed GVWR was vehicle + all fluids.
That'd be a wrong definition of GVWR :tease:

Regardless of some of my fails 3500lbs is not a feasible cut off for a typical family sedan as even my fairly small car is above that weight. Keep in mind that average size of the midsize sedan went up from 05+, if you compare the current A4 to the old A6 you will see they are nearly the same size. The Japanese are also around the same size and weight. This is base models we are talking here so anyone with a V6 and some options will be going into CDL territory very quickly.
I've never claimed that 3500lbs is a feasible cut off. In fact, I've said twice (I think) that I do not argue in favor of that idea.

Irregardless of real vehicles matching or not matching that criteria, my biggest concern with the idea is this: Why should you require a better driving license for a 3600lbs curb weight sedan than for a 5400lbs curb weight pickup?




keep in mind that A8 uses mostly aluminum for its structure keeping the weight down despite being a very large vehicle.
Yes, I'm aware of that. I was just bringing up an example of a larger and heavier car than the A4 (1830kg for the 3.0TDI quattro A8 compared to 1460kg for the 1.8T quattro A4) that even with four adults inside will not get to 4900lbs, to make you realize how 4900lbs can not be your curb weight including driver, no matter how heavy he is. It was the quickest comparison while I was browsing the Audi technical documentation. It takes the 3.0TFSI Q7 (!!) to get over 4900lbs.
 
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Cowboy

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My truck is about 5500 pounds, I frequently drive around with 4 people in it, and most of the winter there's a 500lb snowmobile in the back.

Amidoinitrite?
Well you are getting there, but better tow a trailer filled with anvils behind it to make sure......
 

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I vote we steer this thread away from whether or not an Audi is or is not above a hypothetical weight limit depending on whether or not the driver ate a big breakfast
 

prizrak

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I vote we steer this thread away from whether or not an Audi is or is not above a hypothetical weight limit depending on whether or not the driver ate a big breakfast
Hey it was a GOOD breakfast :p

To make small cars more appealing would require that all the options generally reserved for larger cars be available. It would also require a very clever use of interior space. I can only see cars that are running on something similar to GM's skateboard concept being able to achieve that.

My opinion has always been that if government/econuts want us driving smaller more fuel efficient less damaging to the environment cars then they have to put up money for making the cars meet those requirements without sacrificing comfort/driveability/fun level. I am not going to go to a Prius or a Fit to save the planet but offer me the same A4 as an FCEV with same driving dynamics/characteristics and assuming that infrastructure is there and refueling costs are similar I'd have no reason to say no.
 
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narf

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I vote we steer this thread away from whether or not an Audi is or is not above a hypothetical weight limit depending on whether or not the driver ate a big breakfast
Ok, let's steer it towards Czech estates under 3000lbs curb weight :tease:
 

prizrak

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Ok, let's steer it towards Czech estates under 3000lbs curb weight :tease:
Skoda in Russian means something like a misdemeanor/prank/something bad that was done. Like if a kid put made a mess when parents weren't looking specifically after being told not to they would call that act a Skoda. :p
 

Cowboy

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Skoda in Russian means something like a misdemeanor/prank/something bad that was done. Like if a kid put made a mess when parents weren't looking specifically after being told not to they would call that act a Skoda. :p
Actualy Skoda just means VW for people to cheap to buy a VW :p
 

McRae

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I think the answer to the whole "forcing people to downsize their cars"-question is: taxes.

Then we'll see americans replacing their big V8-trucks with this:



Gangsta, innit?
 

katwalk

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Maybe they should instead actually make those AVAILABLE in america. :p
We don't have a class between for example a fiesta and a smart car, and since smart cars are overpriced crap they are not really worth mentioning.
 

prizrak

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Maybe they should instead actually make those AVAILABLE in america. :p
We don't have a class between for example a fiesta and a smart car, and since smart cars are overpriced crap they are not really worth mentioning.
No one would buy them. I mentioned this problem before in another thread but basically you have two fairly distinct markets in the US:
1) Large densely populated cities
2) Rest of the country

For the former small cars make sense for commute and getting around purposes as traffic is fairly bad and parking is at a premium. The reasons it doesn't make any sense whatsoever are:
1) Parking is generally regulated (at least in high traffic areas) so parking spots are of predefined length based on the size of a work van usually. Also for commuters street parking rarely makes sense as it has time limits, usually those who do drive to work would park in parking garages. Now this might only be NYC specific I don't know but IIRC Boston was similar. The business areas of the city pretty much don't allow any parking during the day aside from commercial traffic,those are trucks/vans anyway.

2) Public transit systems are fairly well established, coupled with above few people actually drive to work in the larger areas. I work with a couple of people who live outside the city and they drive to the commuter rail to get to the city they don't drive to the city itself. As such a large portion of people will only buy a car if they WANT one as they don't generally NEED one (at least not enough to buy it, renting/zipcar like services would make more sense). Nobody WANTS an Aygo or a Sentra (outside of the older SE-R maybe) so people will buy larger/nicer cars. I can tell you that A4 and 3 series are damn near ubiquitous in NYC these days. There are very few beaters driving around most of the cars are no more than 5 years old.

3) Owning a car is generally more expensive in larger cities, insurance, gas, road tolls tend to be higher than in more rural areas. Now on the face of it it should make small cars more desirable. Reality is that coupled with point 2 there is really no reason to own a car so people will not buy "crappy" cars just to be able to get around as they can do it easily enough already. For the times they want cars they get zip car or some other rental. (there are a shitload of zip cars running around the city).

Other place where a car is required have enough room to allow for the larger cars and price is generally not much of a consideration as there are always plenty of used cars to choose from and insurance and fuel prices are generally pretty low.
 

narf

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Price is generally not much of a consideration as there are always plenty of used cars to choose from and insurance and fuel prices are generally pretty low.
That could be changed if there was a will to force people into smaller cars. Make large cars artificially expensive, used large car prices go up. Make insurance for large cars artificially expensive, fewer people buy large cars. Make fuel artificially more expensive, fewer people buy large cars. Fewer people buy large cars, used large car prices go up even more. Use some of the money gained from fuel etc. to fix some roads, less reason to have a land yacht, fewer people buy large cars.

If, obviously.
 
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