London Burning

nomix

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The argument is that it isn't just a case of "robbery" but "robbery taking advantage of mass public disorder". Hence its the crimes themselves that are unusual rather than the treatment that the offenders are receiving.
A crime is a crime. I loathe unusual legal practice spawned from unusual circumstances. It is just a wrong cause of action.

Sentences for robbery can go higher than 6 months, out of the 6 months handed to this guy he will probably serve 8 weeks on good behaviour maybe even less. Personally I don't think that is particularly harsh. On appeal it may even be changed to a suspended sentence where he serves it at home.
8 weeks is still too harsh for a couple of bottles of water. For a flat screen TV or a crate of whisky, it might have been justified. But not for a couple of bottles of water.

This morning the BBC interviewed some looters who drove around in a white van, stopping at various riot locations to fill it up with stolen merchandise.

You are correct. Some traveled a great distance to partake in the mayhem.
That's a six monther right there.
 

jmsprovan

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8 weeks is still too harsh for a couple of bottles of water. For a flat screen TV or a crate of whisky, it might have been justified. But not for a couple of bottles of water.
Theft of a relatively small amount is still theft, if we trivialise thefts like that with weak sentences then what is the point of giving them out at all? it won't act as a deterrent or provide "justice" to the suffering shopkeeper.

That's a six monther right there.
That seems like organised criminal activity, stealing to resell. Deserves far more than 6 months.
 

WillDAQ

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A crime is a crime. I loathe unusual legal practice spawned from unusual circumstances. It is just a wrong cause of action.
Thus is the nature of the law, there was no real legal precedent to base the judgements on so one has now been created.
 

captain_70s

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On a slightly off-topic note; there must be some real bargains going on Ebay.co.uk at the moment? :p

They'll probably be flogging all the stolen merchandise on there as we speak.
If they have any sense they'll be keeping hold of it until the police give up looking fo it...
 

Spectre

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Just locked up another man for stolen goods after he bragged on Facebook he couldn't be caught. Wrong.
Greater Manchester Police
The Manchester cops seem to have been worlds more effective than the "Metropolitan Police". Perhaps they should fire all the MP leadership and let the Manchester brass have a go at it without political interference.

Also, stupid criminal is stupid. :p
 
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MWF

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Anyone see Sky News tonight. Bunch of masked 16/17 year olds claiming they did it to feed their families and to gain revenge on the firms that repeatedly rejected them as they trod the streets with their CVs? (Resumes)

Sky News described these giys as "educated" because they scored a couple of GCSEs but while more eloquent than one might expect, in the current climate they need to do more to get employed.

Hell, I'd employ a drunk Captain 70s before I'd give any of these dudes a trial and he can barely lift a ballpoint pen let alone stack shelves.
 

Spectre

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Awesome, that should be on a t-shirt! :lol:
And now it is. I just checked with Viper and he said it was okay to post it here. I've got a Printfection store with them up now:



http://www.printfection.com/2011londonriots/

Edit: I forgot to mention - I specifically made sure there were NO HOODIES offered. That's a level of irony I don't want. :p
 
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he-he

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I am so getting one of them!

EDIT - I have ordered one, and will wear it with pride! (Or something!)
 
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Heathrow

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A crime is a crime. I loathe unusual legal practice spawned from unusual circumstances. It is just a wrong cause of action.


8 weeks is still too harsh for a couple of bottles of water. For a flat screen TV or a crate of whisky, it might have been justified. But not for a couple of bottles of water.


That's a six monther right there.
I am a little uneasy about the lengths of sentences as well, for two reasons mainly.

Firstly, the sentences look a bit too much like "the heat of the moment" or rough justice.

I do understand the public's anger and the view of the courts, it just may not too well in a year's time looking back. Also, there is the positive deterrent effect, to discourage others for acting in a similar way in future.

Secondly, the courts are operating 24 hours a day and at some time the future, an appeal court judge may rule an "unsafe conviction" or coercion, to previously made guilty plea. Say, example, if some yobbo calims he was forced into pleading guilty at four in the morning.


EDIT: For clarity, I would not want even one of these f**king sociopaths to have their conviction quashed at a later date and then be able to claim compensation.

* * *

BBC News - Courts hear roll-call of accused

BBC News said:
Police have made 1,600 arrests and 796 people have appeared in court following the riots in England, says the Ministry of Justice. And as courts in work round the clock to process a stream of cases, a clearer picture is emerging of who was involved.

Looting and disorder charges continue to dominate proceedings, and are being dealt with quickly, but more serious offences of violent disorder are beginning to be heard.


more on link
Quite a diverse range of people arrested and convicted, not what you might imagine given the way the TV News stations covered the riots. Not all "dissaffected, unemployed male youths", by any means.

* * *

BBC News - Arrest over death of Richard Mannington Bowes

The guy who was injured in the Ealing, west London riot, sadly died this morning. The police have arrested one of the suspects today.
 
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captain_70s

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Anyone see Sky News tonight. Bunch of masked 16/17 year olds claiming they did it to feed their families and to gain revenge on the firms that repeatedly rejected them as they trod the streets with their CVs? (Resumes)

Sky News described these giys as "educated" because they scored a couple of GCSEs but while more eloquent than one might expect, in the current climate they need to do more to get employed.

Hell, I'd employ a drunk Captain 70s before I'd give any of these dudes a trial and he can barely lift a ballpoint pen let alone stack shelves.
If I burnt down all the firms that have rejected my job applications/CVs Dumfries would be lacking a Tesco (x2), Morrisons, Wickes, Homesbase, NEXT, M&S, KFC, Subway, Costa and Greggs... and that's just the major shops I can actually remember! :p On the subject of feeding families I find it very rare the state let people get to the point where they are starving to death, I wonder if these same people have the luxury of a TV set and license, I bet they do...

As annoying as it is I know that one main reason I'm not getting jobs is that there are simply better qualified/more experienced/more presentable people out there and I'm not the best candidate. Got to keep trying, not give up and loot the stores... Who the Hell is ever going to employ them now, with a criminal record in an area already suffering from lack on investment?

Heathrow said:
The guy who was injured in the Ealing, west London riot, sadly died this morning. The police have arrested one of the suspects today.
Sometimes I wonder what goes on in these people's heads, how can you justify beating an innocent man to the point of death for attempting to put out a fire?


(PS. I CAN lift a ballpoint pen, getting to create legible text is another matter...) :p
 
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Heathrow

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Anyone see Sky News tonight. Bunch of masked 16/17 year olds claiming they did it to feed their families and to gain revenge on the firms that repeatedly rejected them as they trod the streets with their CVs? (Resumes)

Sky News described these giys as "educated" because they scored a couple of GCSEs but while more eloquent than one might expect, in the current climate they need to do more to get employed.

Hell, I'd employ a drunk Captain 70s before I'd give any of these dudes a trial and he can barely lift a ballpoint pen let alone stack shelves.
Yes, I saw that as well.

Not convinced with any post-event rationisation and justification.

Three 16yos and a 17yo, stole a large amout of stuff from several stores, they need some jail time.

Also, I did laugh when they sort of bragged or threatened, that they could get away with it again.


Well worth a look, so check the Sky News website and see if they have it public, if you are outside of the UK. (Also, repeated again on saturday at 20:30 BST, if you can hook up a feed.)
 
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Jay

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The Manchester cops seem to have been worlds more effective than the "Metropolitan Police". Perhaps they should fire all the MP leadership and let the Manchester brass have a go at it without political interference.
GENE.

HUNT.


That is all.
 

nomix

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Theft of a relatively small amount is still theft, if we trivialise thefts like that with weak sentences then what is the point of giving them out at all? it won't act as a deterrent or provide "justice" to the suffering shopkeeper.
For crying out loud, it is not trivialising it, but there is a difference between a theft of ?3.50 and a theft of ?3500. I put it to you, if you go out looting and the only thing you steal is four bottles of water worth ?3.50, then you're bloody rubbish at looting. It might even indicate that the statement that he "took some water because he was thirsty" was truthfull. I suppose there were no shops open to buy water from. Perhaps he should have sent ?3.50 in the mail to the shop in question?

That seems like organised criminal activity, stealing to resell. Deserves far more than 6 months.
That seems like organised criminal activity indeed. So ti deserves a six month + sentence. But someone who was obviously not looting (given that he would then be the worst looter in the world), does not warrant a six month custodial.

Thus is the nature of the law, there was no real legal precedent to base the judgements on so one has now been created.
There is ample legal practice for both breaking and entry, and theft. The court should concern itself with the law and legal practice, not the outcry of the Daily Mail.

I am a little uneasy about the lengths of sentences as well, for two reasons mainly.

Firstly, the sentences look a bit too much like "the heat of the moment" or rough justice.

I do understand the public's anger and the view of the courts, it just may not too well in a year's time looking back. Also, there is the positive deterrent effect, to discourage others for acting in a similar way in future.

Secondly, the courts are operating 24 hours a day and at some time the future, an appeal court judge may rule an "unsafe conviction" or coercion, to previously made guilty plea. Say, example, if some yobbo calims he was forced into pleading guilty at four in the morning.


EDIT: For clarity, I would not want even one of these f**king sociopaths to have their conviction quashed at a later date and then be able to claim compensation.
Neither do I, if the convictions were correct and the penalties proportionate. I do fear you will have a large number of faulty court convictions, because magistrates are overworked, because they might be inclined to accept lesser evidence as proof of a crime. A large number of these convictions will probably be overturned because of that, and a large number of these insane sentences will probably be cut down to size as well.

I've said for the better part of three days that you can't administer justice in the heat of the moment. British courts seem to do just that.

GENE.

HUNT.


That is all.
ENDEVOUR.

MORSE.

Scallywags doesn't even have taste. I shake my head in amazement.
 

narf

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Hooray for CCTV?

No hooray for replacing officers with them though, just hooray for adding them on top?
 
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