Mexico seeks US probe of border tear gas

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MEXICO CITY - Mexico has formally requested the United States investigate recent incidents in which Border Patrol officers fired tear gas onto the Mexican side of the border, the government said Thursday.

After being upbraided by the country's top human rights agency for failing to press Washington enough on the issue, Mexico's Foreign Relations Department issued a statement calling the tactic "unacceptable."

The Border Patrol says the tactic is necessary to protect its officers from increasing attacks by people hurling rocks and other objects at them from Mexico.

"Independently of whether these incidents are a response to hostile acts against Border Patrol agents by private citizens on the Mexican side, the Mexican government considers these actions by U.S. federal authorities to be unacceptable," Foreign Relations said in a statement.

The department said it sent a letter to the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City on Jan. 15 requesting "a thorough investigation." It added that a Mexican boy was injured in one of the incidents, but did not give details.

The Border Patrol reported 987 attacks ? many with rocks ? on its agents during the 12-month period that ended Sept. 30, the most since it began keeping track in the late 1990s.

U.S. officials say they have talked to Mexican authorities about the issue. The Border Patrol recently equipped agents in California and Arizona with a pepper-spray launcher that has a range of more than 200 feet, and says they are only used defensively.

On Wednesday, Mexico's National Human Rights Commission urged the government to do more to stop the incidents and take "urgent and decisive action."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080201/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_us_border

I really can't see anything at fault with the Border Patrol's actions. There being reports of Mexican Military patrols straying onto the US side of the border is also something to consider.
 
I really can't see anything at fault with the Border Patrol's actions. There being reports of Mexican Military patrols straying onto the US side of the border is also something to consider.

Well let's see... Mexico is out of their jurisdiction, they have simply no legitimacy to shoot into Mexico, even though it might ensure their safety.
The obvious solution is of course a bi-lateral agreement which allows the border control to interfere within the intermediate border region of Mexico. Very much the same thing we have all over Europe ;)
Does the US extradite US citizens to Mexico?
 
You are absolutely correct, Mexico. Next time instead of CS canisters we will launch grenades and bullets.

Seriously, what the fuck? Mexico is seriously pissing me off, suddenly anything we do to secure our border is a violation of the civil rights of Mexicans? Building a fucking fence is a violation of their rights? That shit wouldn't even fly between two residential neighbors within the US. It's our land, our government, and our fence. If you hurl a token of your country (rock) at our federal employees on our soil then we can hurl a token of our nation (CS cannisters) back. Period.

If you don't start shit, there won't be shit.

I like my brother's idea for dealing with Mexico: make it a reality show, "Who Wants to be an Immigrant?" Fortify the border with tripwires, mines, machine gun towers, etc. Anyone who makes it through the gauntlet gets to be a citizen. Think of it as Darwinistic Quality Assurance. The best part? Rent out time on the machine guns and remote-detonated mines. Between that and the sponsorship of the broadcast (and licensing rights) the entire border fortification might not only break even, but turn a profit.

And it won't be affected by the writer's strike.
 
If we were able to secure the border completely (which I doubt is feasible without a huge expenditure of money) we would hurt the US economy. Migrant workers provide cheap labor for many growers along the border. And no they aren't stealing US jobs as no US citizen wants to pick grapes for a living.
Unfortunately the only people who can fix this problem are those in the Mexican government, but they are too corrupt to care to improve their county.
 
Bullshit.

The goal is to close the border so we can monitor and control who comes into our country. Part of sealing the border would be to institute a guest worker program so we know who is here, where they are, and place limits on what they are doing. Migrant workers are not the only ones making use of our porous border.

You want to improve the economy? How about the ability to tax the incomes of those "off the books" workers? How about stiff fines and penalties for companies that hire illegal workers? Add it all up and we would actually boost the economy and create new jobs.
 
How are we to secure nearly 2000 miles of border? Also if we tax those workers and legitimize them, then their bosses will need to pay them minimum wages, which are vastly higher than what they are paying them right now.
 
That's just based on the current law. Just write an exception into the law for guest worker program workers - then we can track them, legitimize them, and monitor them.

The big thing is to take away the reason for them to come here in the first place. If we crack down on companies that use illegal workers and make the penalties so severe that it's no longer worth the risk then they won't hire illegals. If they won't hire illegals there won't be any jobs for them and they will stop coming illegally, but rather through the newly instituted guest worker program.

Without the flood of illegal workers, we can focus on sealing the borders against those who are not coming here to work, but to do harm.

Problem: Solved
 
Just playing devils advocate here, as I come down more on your side Blind.

If we secure the Mexico-US border in an attempt to secure the flow of people into our country, should we also secure the Canada-US border? There are huge swaths of unprotected border. Hell, you could walk around the peace arch and noone would give a damn. It's very easy to see poor European immigrants flying through Canada and walking across the American border. Or the issue of unregistered Asian immigrants who are trafficked into America through the Canadian border. So would you like to build the same wall along the Canadian border as you would along the Mexican border?
 
That's just based on the current law. Just write an exception into the law for guest worker program workers - then we can track them, legitimize them, and monitor them.

Fair enough, if we could manage to control immigration.

The big thing is to take away the reason for them to come here in the first place. If we crack down on companies that use illegal workers and make the penalties so severe that it's no longer worth the risk then they won't hire illegals. If they won't hire illegals there won't be any jobs for them and they will stop coming illegally, but rather through the newly instituted guest worker program.

This would not be so easy, you would need to keep an eye on a vast number of farms. You would need to survey the entirety of Southern California, Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. Even then immigrants may just move further North.

I do agree that the only way to stop illegal immigration is to get rid of the incentive, however unless Bush Jr. decides to conquer Mexico the US can't do anything about it. The Mexican government needs to fix the problem.

Without the flood of illegal workers, we can focus on sealing the borders against those who are not coming here to work, but to do harm.

The US border has been open for well over a hundred years, and we have managed to survive. Even if the border was closed it would not have stopped the WTC bombing or 9/11, both of which did not utilize the border. Even if there are no Mexicans illegally immigrating across the border, the US would still have a hard time tracking the odd terrorist who decides to make a precedent and enter our country that way.

The best thing the US can do is to require at least one American parent, or proof of legitimate immigration, to grant US citizenship, it would provide at least some discouragement for those wanting to benefit from US government programs such as public school and the like.
 
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That's just based on the current law. Just write an exception into the law for guest worker program workers - then we can track them, legitimize them, and monitor them.

The big thing is to take away the reason for them to come here in the first place. If we crack down on companies that use illegal workers and make the penalties so severe that it's no longer worth the risk then they won't hire illegals. If they won't hire illegals there won't be any jobs for them and they will stop coming illegally, but rather through the newly instituted guest worker program.

Without the flood of illegal workers, we can focus on sealing the borders against those who are not coming here to work, but to do harm.

Problem: Solved

So how would you make sure people aren't hiring them to run errands and do chores?
 
I like my brother's idea for dealing with Mexico: make it a reality show, "Who Wants to be an Immigrant?" Fortify the border with tripwires, mines, machine gun towers, etc. Anyone who makes it through the gauntlet gets to be a citizen. Think of it as Darwinistic Quality Assurance. The best part? Rent out time on the machine guns and remote-detonated mines. Between that and the sponsorship of the broadcast (and licensing rights) the entire border fortification might not only break even, but turn a profit.

And it won't be affected by the writer's strike.

They could call is Mexican Gladiators and have a lucha libre wrestler as one of the hosts :lol:
 
The Border Patrol says the tactic is necessary to protect its officers from increasing attacks by people hurling rocks and other objects at them from Mexico.


The point of the story is the American border guards firing onto the Mexican side of the border because they are protecting themselves from people throwing rocks.

Um, numbnutts, get out of range.

You don't fire tear gas over the border into another country. Sovereignty is being infinged. You either stand back out of reach, or wait until they cross onto American soil at which time you can tear gas them or shoot them with 45's for all i care. You don't shoot locals, in their own country from over the border. A country's borders are supposed to be sacred.

This has nothing to do with American economics and the legal/illegal worker debate. This is purely sovereignty.
 
This has nothing to do with American economics and the legal/illegal worker debate. This is purely sovereignty.


:thumbup: At least someone understands the issue, without Mexico's permission the actions of the border patrol are completely illegitimate. I am shocked how many people see no problems with these actions.:(
 
Screw their sovereignty. They have no respect for ours, why should we have any respect for theirs. Go look at some of the stuff that fuckwit President Fox has said over the past few years. It's clear that Mexicans are under the delusion that they are somehow entitled to do whatever they want in our country and ignore our laws and territorial borders. When we take measures to secure our land and protect our sovereignty they attack our border patrol. Once they have made the first attack against US employees on US soil we are supposed to - what, exactly? Run away? Screw that.

This was not an unprovoked attack into Mexican territory, this was US Federal Agents who were attacked on US soil by foreign nationals, and they responded with less than lethal force. In my opinion they had every right to shoot the assholes and leave them there for the Federales to clean up.
 
I think I know why border security is so loose, it is because Mexico does not want to deal with their own domestic problems.

If the US was to totally seal off the border, I am willing to bet within six months the current government would be overthrown. Think of the border as a political safety valve, for both sides.

On one hand, I understand why people from Central America migrate to here, if I was living in Mexico, you could bet your sweet ass I would heading North ASAP! I look at Mexican society as a caste society, the extremes of "haves" and "have nots". On one side, you have the people who are wealthy, and can trace back their family to Spain. They are the ones in control, period. Then there are the ones of mixed blood or fully native; they are treated as second class. Those are usually the ones who migrate to the US.

And I don't blame them. You think the way the US Governmemt handled the American natives was brutal, take a look at what Mexico and the Spanish did to the natives, you may as well call it genocide.

On the other hand, Mexico can kiss my ass. Fuck them telling us about civil rights, how about they first clean up their own problems with their fucked up, lopsided, bigoted government. And I dare anyone to immigrate to Mexico illegally, much less protest in the streets. At best you will be jailed for a long time, at worst, you will be killed.
 
Want to see something really interesting? Go take a look at Mexico's policy at their southern border. They are bitching at us for using border patrol, arresting illegals and deporting them; Mexico has deployed their military on their southern border and make a habit of shooting people.
 
Screw their sovereignty. They have no respect for ours, why should we have any respect for theirs. Go look at some of the stuff that fuckwit President Fox has said over the past few years. It's clear that Mexicans are under the delusion that they are somehow entitled to do whatever they want in our country and ignore our laws and territorial borders. When we take measures to secure our land and protect our sovereignty they attack our border patrol. Once they have made the first attack against US employees on US soil we are supposed to - what, exactly? Run away? Screw that.


Screw their sovereignty. They have no respect for ours, why should we have any respect for theirs. Go look at some of the stuff that fuckwit President Bush has said over the past few years. It's clear that Americans are under the delusion that they are somehow entitled to do whatever they want in their country and ignore their laws and territorial borders. When we take measures to secure our land and protect our sovereignty they attack our border patrol. Once they have made the first attack against Mexican employees on Mexican soil we are supposed to - what, exactly? Run away? Screw that.


The self appointed World's Police don't see anything wrong in screwing with another country's borders. These bloody prisoner flights from Iraq landing without qauthority on European soil etc. is even worse than shooting tear gas over the border of Mexico, you are screwing with so-called friends! And you bloody guys wonder why some in this world hate you (and i mean the country, not the people) so much?
 
The US has a long history with dictating policy in the countries to its South, why do you think they are so screwed up. ;)
Might I add, to stop this from becoming a US vs Europe thing, that European countries have done the same thing in a far worse fashion in the past across the globe.

Mexico and the US in the past have traditionally had a fairly non amicable relationship. The US did take about half of Mexico after the American-Mexican War.

I don't see this as a major problem. The US has no plans to invade Mexico, nor does Mexico have plans to do likewise. The fact is Mexico is not helping the US with the immigration problem, as they benefit from it, if the US needs to chuck a few gas canisters over the border to protect its military there, so be it. If Mexico wants to stop this, then they can stop treating their people like shit and take away the desire for these immigrants to move to America illegally.
 
This would not be so easy, you would need to keep an eye on a vast number of farms. You would need to survey the entirety of Southern California, Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. Even then immigrants may just move further North.
Not just farms. There's a significant number of illegal immigrants here, working in construction, landscaping, warehouse jobs etc. The construction company I used to work for had to fire two guys that they found out were illegals. IIRC, they had other jobs within a week.

Um, numbnutts, get out of range.
That was my first reaction. But after thinking on it, it's just wrong. Blind Io made some good points in rebuttal to this. Is the US infringing upon Mexican sovereignty, by shooting non-lethal tear gas, any more than Mexican nationals chucking rocks at US officials? Did that make any sense :?? And hey, I'd rather get buzzed with tear gas than beaned with a rock, know what I mean?

You say we're infringing on their sovereignty, I say we're legally entitled to defend ours.


I think I know why border security is so loose, it is because Mexico does not want to deal with their own domestic problems.
Fox has all but said that. Without the millions of US dollars that mexican immigrants wire south each month, propping up the Mexican economy, I've got little doubt that there would be a revolution.

Might I add, to stop this from becoming a US vs Europe thing, that European countries have done the same thing in a far worse fashion in the past across the globe.
Yup. Relative to other border and immigrant situations, this is nothing. The US is the nicest country in the world to illegal immigrants. In most other countries, if you're there illegally: you have no rights. What do we do in the US? Feed you and give you a ride home. Shit, they've got nothing to lose; I'd do the same thing if I was a poor mexican.
 
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Is the US infringing upon Mexican sovereignty, by shooting non-lethal tear gas, any more than Mexican nationals chucking rocks at US officials? Did that make any sense :?? And hey, I'd rather get buzzed with tear gas than beaned with a rock, know what I mean?

Civillians throwing rocks =/= Federal agents shotting tear gas.

It isn't a moral issue, its a legal one. The Mexicans shouldn't be throwing rocks. The Mexican Government should be doing all they can to stop their citizens breaching the border before they start attacking the US border guards actions and crying foul , but that does not justify the firing of tear gas across the border.

If a private citizen from the US shot a few rounds over the border would that justify a Mexican military strike on his town?
 
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