Mexico seeks US probe of border tear gas

Scooby5

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If your neighbor started throwing shit at you every time you went into your back garden, would you just never go there? Of course not, you would call the police. Now what would the police do if the neighbor started throwing stones at them when they are talking to you in your back garden? Think they would just go inside and pretend he's not there? Would they advise you to abandon your property because of an aggressive neighbor (assume you aren't in the UK). No, they would go take care of it.
Congratulations, you've nearly seen the light.

Your neighbour throws shit at you everytime you enter your garden, you call the police and they go round and sort it out....... you don't do this by yourself!

Of course, there is no sovereignty issue from one garden to the next. There is no different goverment involved and the rest so the police would go round and arrest his sorry arse. The thing is that the police sort it out, not you. With the border patrol firing tear gas over the fence they have just declared themselves the World's Police Force....... again.

If you are saying the Maxican government are not doing anything, then fine sort it out through the UN, Security Council, directly through sanctions or whatever. You don't take international law into your own hands and say fuck it. Hmm, well that's happened a lot already so maybe you guys would but the point is you're not supposed to.
 

cvrefugee

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The fence would be incredibly expensive to build and maintain. Also it isn't that hard to cross over an undefended - it can't all be manned - fence if you have the will to do so. Remember the border is around 2000 miles.
They could just hire illegal immigrants to build the fence :lol:
 

hansvonaxion

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OK, I didn't mention Mexican guards. If the comment was sarcastic, meaning that Mexico should police their border to stop people leaving... why the hell would they? They have other, more pressing domestic issues to spend their money on, I'm sure. How many countries spend money on keeping their citizens contained? North Korea is all I can think of at the moment.

Tear gas can be lethal. Rocks can be lethal.
Citizens throwing rocks over an international border is NOT the same as Federal law enforcement firing Government supplied toxic gas over an international border. Can you not see the difference?

Blind IO, the emotions (or even motivation) of those throwing rocks does not make this an illegal immigration issue unless they cross the border. But...

Problem: Mexicans throwing rocks at Border patrol because they hate them.

Solution: Fire tear gas back across the border.

Yeah that's a solution.

Justified? Well, I was justified in pushing my little brother back when he pushed me. And when he took a swing at me I was justified in hitting him, which happened to cause him to fall and crack his head open on the coffee table and killed him. I'm not going to take a step back and avoid confrontation when I am justified in the use of force, even if it means I end up killing the little bastard.

If you are saying the Maxican government are not doing anything, then fine sort it out through the UN, Security Council, directly through sanctions or whatever. You don't take international law into your own hands and say fuck it. Hmm, well that's happened a lot already so maybe you guys would but the point is you're not supposed to.
Yes.
 

argatoga

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They could just hire illegal immigrants to build the fence :lol:
Watch the Penn and Teller Bullshit episode on immigration, they do just that.

Concerning the UN, there is no need for it in this case. Neither the US, nor Mexico will go to war over this. The US and Mexico can talk to each other without mediation, if the two can't agree and things escalate, than the UN maybe useful.
 

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Concerning the UN, there is no need for it in this case. Neither the US, nor Mexico will go to war over this. The US and Mexico can talk to each other without mediation, if the two can't agree and things escalate, than the UN maybe useful.

Don't you think shooting gas canisters over international borders is "escalated" enough?
 

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Blind IO, the emotions (or even motivation) of those throwing rocks does not make this an illegal immigration issue unless they cross the border. But...

Problem: Mexicans throwing rocks at Border patrol because they hate them.
You don't seem to know the whole issue. The rock throwing is a tactic by smugglers, not ordinary Mexican citizens, to help sneak illegal immigrants in. The rock throwing is a diversionary tactic by Mexican human smugglers and drug smugglers, it's used to make sure the border patrol won't be able to respond to people moving across the border. They can't do much when they've got a large group of people throwing grapefruit sized rocks at them and it's not exactly easy to get out of range of them either, they are on a road adjacent to the border fence and if there isn't a road moving away from the fence they can't exactly turn directly into rough terrain and get stuck and they can't abandon the vehicle either. Also don't think they are safe inside the vehicle, like I said these rocks are very large and can break through a window with ease and they have in the past causing serious harm to the border patrol officers.
 

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Congratulations, you've nearly seen the light.

Your neighbour throws shit at you everytime you enter your garden, you call the police and they go round and sort it out....... you don't do this by yourself!

Of course, there is no sovereignty issue from one garden to the next. There is no different goverment involved and the rest so the police would go round and arrest his sorry arse. The thing is that the police sort it out, not you. With the border patrol firing tear gas over the fence they have just declared themselves the World's Police Force....... again.

If you are saying the Maxican government are not doing anything, then fine sort it out through the UN, Security Council, directly through sanctions or whatever. You don't take international law into your own hands and say fuck it. Hmm, well that's happened a lot already so maybe you guys would but the point is you're not supposed to.
:rolleyes:

Look, there is no "world police." The UN is a joke, and if we are really really bad the UN might send a strongly-worded letter. There is no higher authority to call and Mexico has been violating our border for years, attacking our border guards and causing problems in our nation. There is no influx of Americans going to Mexico illegally, or crossing their border. As much as you attempt to isolate this from the pattern of border violations, you can't do it. I tried to break it down with the garden analogy, but you completely missed the point and entered into a semantic debate.

In international politics you do "take the law into your own hands" because "you" is a nation and "you" makes the laws. You keep blaming the border guards for reacting to an attack. Not once have you placed the blame for precipitating the incident on those who actually started the attack. The US will not give up our soil to a bunch of peasants with stones. The reaction was justified, they violated the border by attacking across it. This is not a sodding game of "Tag" you can't do some stupid shit and then declare yourself "safe" because you ran to the Jungle Gym. The reaction over the border was entirely justified because the initial attack was over the border. By attacking over the border the Mexicans opened the door to similar retaliation. They opened the door for the reaction.

What if they weren't throwing stones? What if they were shooting bullets (which go farther), should we abandon all our land along the border that is within pistol range? What about rifle range? Mortar range? How about artillery range? The distances and weapons may change but the concept is still the same, appeasement. Sorry, but Neville Chamberlain showed that appeasement doesn't work. It's easy to say we should retreat from our territory when you are talking about such small distances, but retreating any distance is the same as retreating miles. If you can't justify retreating a mile then you should not retreat an inch.

And what of the American ranchers whose property abut the border? What do we tell them? "Sorry, but federal agents will no longer protect the border, you better clear out your heard and abandon part of your ranch." Right. What will (and has already happened) is that ranchers defend their property under the laws of Texas, Arizona and New Mexico. That means you get a .30-06 bullet flying instead of a relatively harmless CS gas cannister.
 

argatoga

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:rolleyes:

Look, there is no "world police." The UN is a joke, and if we are really really bad the UN might send a strongly-worded letter. There is no higher authority to call and Mexico has been violating our border for years, attacking our border guards and causing problems in our nation. There is no influx of Americans going to Mexico illegally, or crossing their border. As much as you attempt to isolate this from the pattern of border violations, you can't do it. I tried to break it down with the garden analogy, but you completely missed the point and entered into a semantic debate.

In international politics you do "take the law into your own hands" because "you" is a nation and "you" makes the laws. You keep blaming the border guards for reacting to an attack. Not once have you placed the blame for precipitating the incident on those who actually started the attack. The US will not give up our soil to a bunch of peasants with stones. The reaction was justified, they violated the border by attacking across it. This is not a sodding game of "Tag" you can't do some stupid shit and then declare yourself "safe" because you ran to the Jungle Gym. The reaction over the border was entirely justified because the initial attack was over the border. By attacking over the border the Mexicans opened the door to similar retaliation. They opened the door for the reaction.

What if they weren't throwing stones? What if they were shooting bullets (which go farther), should we abandon all our land along the border that is within pistol range? What about rifle range? Mortar range? How about artillery range? The distances and weapons may change but the concept is still the same, appeasement. Sorry, but Neville Chamberlain showed that appeasement doesn't work. It's easy to say we should retreat from our territory when you are talking about such small distances, but retreating any distance is the same as retreating miles. If you can't justify retreating a mile then you should not retreat an inch.

And what of the American ranchers whose property abut the border? What do we tell them? "Sorry, but federal agents will no longer protect the border, you better clear out your heard and abandon part of your ranch." Right. What will (and has already happened) is that ranchers defend their property under the laws of Texas, Arizona and New Mexico. That means you get a .30-06 bullet flying instead of a relatively harmless CS gas cannister.
Agreed.

I hate using these extreme analogies, but someone needs to keep Godwin's law. Should Britain have not attacked Germany, and in so doing violating their territory, during WW2 because they did not invade? All the people there could have just abandoned the cities to get out of the way of the missiles and bombs the Nazis threw at them.
 

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Obligatory ZOMG Godwin's Law! comment.
 

watisdis

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I honestly can't see this issue ever getting resolved, at least not in our life time. Worst part is that it makes people's emotions run amok. The Mexican government should take care of their own country (It'll never happen, short of a revolution) and the US government should've taken care of their border decades ago. These are the bottom line culprits, not the people illegally crossing the border seeking a better life. That's just predictable human behavior. Everyone is getting mad at the effects not the cause.
 

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........... a bunch of peasants with stones.
The reaction of firing tear gas over an international border, government supplied and government controlled, against a "bunch of peasants" isn't an over reaction? Holy Crap! It's your (America's) job to fix the border so this doesn't happen.

hansvonaxion had it right when he said no government, with the exception of maybe only North Korea and Cuba, concentrates on stopping its populous from fleeing the country, it is the job of countries to stop illegals arriving. You can't blame the Mexican peasants because the American government is too cheap to secure its own borders properly! Your government, afterall, is also supporting Isreal's building of a wall separating off the Palastinians.

Should Britain have not attacked Germany, and in so doing violating their territory, during WW2 because they did not invade?
The whole analogy of bringing up Nazi Germany in WWII is well off the mark and is damaging your own credibility. Britian didn't attack Germany first! You are talking about one nation invading another and the Brits along with allies acting in defence of its neighbours. We did the same in the first Iraq war, going simply in defence of Kuwait. You might, however, argue the second Iraq war WAS a violation of Iraq's national borders as the "allies" started the war.




Two final unrelated mentions: 1) Hope you guys survived the Tornados okay 2) Let me wish every one a propserous Year of the Rat and a Happy Lunar New Year.
 

bafranksbro

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Your right we should fix it but no one has the balls to fix it the way it should be and worst of all the three main front runners in the running to be the next president would all make it worse than it is already. The more Latinos that come in the more their vote holds the American gov't hostage so any hope of ever fixing it the way it should just gets more and more unlikely by every day that goes by.

The Mexican gov't has a bigger role in it than you think though, they encourage their people to leave and work illegally in the US to send their money back to Mexico. Mexico needs to learn to not be cheap when it comes to their domestic policy. Also it's not because we are to cheap to fix it, we waste far more money on other things to be called cheap, it's just that they don't want to hurt any body's feelings if they close the border off securely.
 
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cvrefugee

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hansvonaxion had it right when he said no government, with the exception of maybe only North Korea and Cuba, concentrates on stopping its populous from fleeing the country, it is the job of countries to stop illegals arriving.
There's a huge difference between North Korea, Cuba, and Mexico. The first two restrict emigration because of their communist nature, we'll leave it at that. Now, it has been proven that Mexico actively educates their citizens on how to emigrate to the U.S. illegally. They don't condemn illegal emigration, they PROMOTE IT! So basically the U.S. is fighting a one-sided battle against illegal immigration from Mexico. If you believe that we should have good relations with our neighboring countries, then Mexico needs to cooperate, otherwise we cannot work together.

Oh, and fuck NAFTA.
 

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The Mexican gov't has a bigger role in it than you think though, they encourage their people to leave and work illegally in the US to send their money back to Mexico. Mexico needs to learn to not be cheap when it comes to their domestic policy.

Mexico doesn't pretend to be the world's last remaining superpower. It IS a poor country and admits to it. It, like The Philippines, Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, China etc. all enourage its people to work overseas.....and they do, a lot. Look at who is physically building Dubai and the other Emirates these days.

You can't blame a government for this.

You can only blame the governments that don't look after their own borders and systems to prevent illegal entries. Many goverments spend a lot of money protecting their own borders without passing the buck (pun not intended). Shooting bullets and tear gas over the border does not constitute protecting it.
 

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Mexico doesn't pretend to be the world's last remaining superpower. It IS a poor country and admits to it.
They aren't as poor as you think, they've got a lot of oil money in Mexico but due to corruption all the money goes to the wrong places instead of trickling down through to everyone. Tourism is a big thing there as well in parts of Mexico. Mexico has many more resources for economic prosperity than maybe even the US, it's just that there is so much corruption that it leaves there to be no middle class. In Mexico you are either rich or poor. So don't pretend Mexico has no way of supporting their own people, with all their oil and tourism money there is no reason they couldn't have a much more stable economic policy. Don't go giving them the free pass they aren't the poor country you think they are.
 

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We try to "fix" the border. Anyway, why is it suddenly only our job to "fix" a shared border?

The self appointed World's Police don't see anything wrong in screwing with another country's borders.
If you are saying the Maxican [sic] government are [sic] not doing anything, then fine sort it out through the UN, Security Council, directly through sanctions or whatever.
Because it looks like that is exactly what you are opposed to the US doing in the first place. You criticize the US for being the "World Police" and that we should go through the UN, now you are saying that the shared border with Mexico is our problem to solve. Make up your mind. If the problem is ours to solve then sod off and let us solve it our way. It's a basic tenant of management, you either tell someone to do something or you tell them how, not both.

This is a basic Cake Conundrum. You don't get to tell us to solve our problem with our border and then have the right to get uppity when we do just that.

You can't blame a government for this.
Oh, yeah? Watch this.

Every measure we have taken to secure our border has been actively subverted by the Mexican Government. The Mexican economy is largely dependent on the remote revenue of of illegal workers in the US and the Mexican Government knows this. They built their entire economic structure around getting their citizens into our country. They hold classes to teach their citizens how to cross the border, they hand out supplies such as food, blankets, water and maps of border patrol routes and trails north. That constitutes government intervention and a whole culture of subverting our laws and our borders.

You can only blame the governments that don't look after their own borders and systems to prevent illegal entries. Many goverments spend a lot of money protecting their own borders without passing the buck (pun not intended). Shooting bullets and tear gas over the border does not constitute protecting it.
Really? Because it seems to have worked pretty well; and not just for the US.

The point here is that you have argued yourself into a corner. First you wanted us to go to the UN or to "fix" the border with talks with Mexico (even though this is something that we talk to Mexico about yearly with no results). Then you turn around and say that it's our fault there is any problem with the border at all and it's up to us to fix it ourselves. Guess what? We are fixing it. Mexico doesn't want to play ball, they continue to subvert our attempts for unilateral talks and encourage their citizens to cross and become more and more aggressive. So we are solving our problem our way, just as you recommend.
 
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watisdis

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The more Latinos that come in the more their vote holds the American gov't hostage so any hope of ever fixing it the way it should just gets more and more unlikely by every day that goes by.
:rolleyes: Yes, because every Latino wants illegal immigrants to run around freely in this country. And since you're already holding this "us vs them" outlook, why not just turn your sweeping overgeneralization it into an all out racial debate? After all, everyone knows Latinos really aren't true Americans. The ignorance of your post invalidates any reasonable credibility you might have had.
 

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The fact is that, according to polls conducted over the past 5 years or so, the one group that is the most opposed to illegal immigration is the legal Latino immigrant community. Those are the people who respected the law and went through the process to come to this country, they see illegals as people not only jumping the fence but jumping in line.

Legal immigrants are more opposed to illegal immigration than natural-born US Citizens.
 

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:rolleyes: Yes, because every Latino wants illegal immigrants to run around freely in this country. And since you're already holding this "us vs them" outlook, why not just turn your sweeping overgeneralization it into an all out racial debate? After all, everyone knows Latinos really aren't true Americans. The ignorance of your post invalidates any reasonable credibility you might have had.
All I say is look at the exit polls in the elections going on right now, I base my assertion on fact not on race and I resent you calling me a racist by the way. Every single exit poll done backs me up on this, just look them up. There are many good politicians that have paid the price of losing their political office positions and that's the exact reason why no one wants to take the hard political position to fix the border and immigration laws.

I'm all for immigration and all for anyone that wants a better life to come here, I just hate people jumping the line in front of people who are playing by the rules already. If we change things up sufficiently we could make it easier for everyone to follow the rules. One of my high school teacher's sons was married to a Mexican and he explained to the class at certain times all the holes, loops, and paper work they had to go through and she still wasn't able to come into the US yet. They were finding it to be almost impossible to get her legally into the country and she was married to an American, it shouldn't be that hard, expensive, and long to legally find a legitimate route into the country.

The thing I'm really really opposed to is that in the current system there is no way to tell difference between those who commit real felony crimes and those who only want a better life. We need to fix it so we can allow those who want to come here for good in and keep those who are bad out.
 

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You can't blame the Mexican peasants because the American government is too cheap to secure its own borders properly! Your government, afterall, is also supporting Isreal's building of a wall separating off the Palastinians.
The US doesn't have the luxury of being an island, or being surrounded by only prosperous nations. We can't just limit immigration severally because we don't want a bunch of people from India and Pakistan coming over. The US has a 2000 MILE BORDER with a very poor and corrupt nation who encourages illegal immigration. Let me restate this as no one seems to get this point. THE US HAS A 2000 MILE BORDER WITH MEXICO. That is half the length of The Great Wall of China. The US can't afford to build, to maintain, and to garrison such a long wall. Even if the US builds the wall traffickers will find a way around it, they always do.

The whole analogy of bringing up Nazi Germany in WWII is well off the mark and is damaging your own credibility. Britian didn't attack Germany first! You are talking about one nation invading another and the Brits along with allies acting in defence of its neighbours.
Yes it was extreme, that's why I said it was too extreme. Just as the follow example was extreme.
If a private citizen from the US shot a few rounds over the border would that justify a Mexican military strike on his town?
We did the same in the first Iraq war, going simply in defence of Kuwait. You might, however, argue the second Iraq war WAS a violation of Iraq's national borders as the "allies" started the war.
I agree, I was against the US decision to invade Iraq.

Two final unrelated mentions: 1) Hope you guys survived the Tornados okay 2) Let me wish every one a propserous Year of the Rat and a Happy Lunar New Year.
Ditto for number two, we only have earthquakes and volcanos in the Pacific Northwest ;).
 
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