"New" GM not honoring "old" GM's warranty claims

prizrak

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I'd argue that's more "calling something you disagree with 'x'" as that whole debacle pissed everyone off. The debt ceiling was raised and there were no real cuts made, just the promise to do so via some (constitutionally questionable) super committee. At the same time Obama helped turn the whole thing into a circus.
See the issue is that the original plan called for some cuts (what Republicans wanted) AND tax raises for the wealthy (what Democrats wanted) along with a debt ceiling increase. In the end we got some cuts and a debt ceiling increase. So a Democratic president gives Republicans what they want but not his own party?
 

Cobol74

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This activity by the Congress and Obama seems to have been needlessly costly for the American tax payer IMHO. We only just dodged the bullet. I do not see how America is going to get out of this mess, no one is thinking about the issues and what the correct fixes may be.

Ukania is only in a stop gap phase too, we have exactly the same issue, IMHO. What in the hell are the EURO people doing, seems to be even worse F*** U* than either US and Ukania?
 

YF19pilot

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See the issue is that the original plan called for some cuts (what Republicans wanted) AND tax raises for the wealthy (what Democrats wanted) along with a debt ceiling increase. In the end we got some cuts and a debt ceiling increase. So a Democratic president gives Republicans what they want but not his own party?
The original plan was for some serious cuts (what the Republicans wanted) in exchange for the debt ceiling being raised (what Obama wanted). Obama then ran around talking about how he wanted tax increases and how Boehner was leaving him at the alter, and Harry Reid gloated about how anything that got passed would be DOA in the Senate. The Republican controlled House kept making revision after revision until what finally passed. There was a bi-partisan proposal that was created by a couple of RINOs and Dems that did involve both cuts and tax increases, but that got no where, because everyone thought it was a joke.

Eventually what came out was a "cut" in discretionatory spending in exchange for the raise in the debt ceiling. Even the amount of the raise was debated from "long enough to cover for six months" which came up half way in the debate to what Obama wanted, which was "long enough to cover through the next election". Discretionatory spending, if you want to know, is when the government automatically raises the budget of an agency based on how much they spent in a previous fiscal year. It's the equivilent of saying "I planned on gaining 100 lbs. this year, but I only gained 80 lbs, therefore I lost 20 lbs!"

In addition to this "cut" there is suppose to be some kind of inter-congressional super committe comprised of something like 12 representatives and senators, 6 from each party, which is to recommend additional measures to balance the budget, and congress is to "discuss" a balanced budget amendment. Basically, Obama got what he wanted (not having to worry about the debt ceiling until after the 2012 elections), the Democrats got to harangue the Republicans, and the Republicans got handed a joke of a compromise.
 

prizrak

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The original plan was for some serious cuts (what the Republicans wanted) in exchange for the debt ceiling being raised (what Obama wanted). Obama then ran around talking about how he wanted tax increases and how Boehner was leaving him at the alter, and Harry Reid gloated about how anything that got passed would be DOA in the Senate. The Republican controlled House kept making revision after revision until what finally passed. There was a bi-partisan proposal that was created by a couple of RINOs and Dems that did involve both cuts and tax increases, but that got no where, because everyone thought it was a joke.

Eventually what came out was a "cut" in discretionatory spending in exchange for the raise in the debt ceiling. Even the amount of the raise was debated from "long enough to cover for six months" which came up half way in the debate to what Obama wanted, which was "long enough to cover through the next election". Discretionatory spending, if you want to know, is when the government automatically raises the budget of an agency based on how much they spent in a previous fiscal year. It's the equivilent of saying "I planned on gaining 100 lbs. this year, but I only gained 80 lbs, therefore I lost 20 lbs!"

In addition to this "cut" there is suppose to be some kind of inter-congressional super committe comprised of something like 12 representatives and senators, 6 from each party, which is to recommend additional measures to balance the budget, and congress is to "discuss" a balanced budget amendment. Basically, Obama got what he wanted (not having to worry about the debt ceiling until after the 2012 elections), the Democrats got to harangue the Republicans, and the Republicans got handed a joke of a compromise.
That is a clusterfuck my friend, but I did read it in all entirety and I stand corrected :)
 

MacGuffin

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It's not about which president rules you, folks, it's about your society and how it handles money.

In the situation Obama was elected, not even an Abraham Lincoln could have done anything about it to prevent it. The root of all the "evil" lies in a combined effort of governments and population, that lasted for decades.

Now they're harvesting the crop of that. That's all.
 

Spectre

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It's not about which president rules you, folks, it's about your society and how it handles money.

In the situation Obama was elected, not even an Abraham Lincoln could have done anything about it to prevent it. The root of all the "evil" lies in a combined effort of governments and population, that lasted for decades.

Now they're harvesting the crop of that. That's all.
I commend this Forbes article to your attention, then. Perhaps he and his political allies could have stopped it, perhaps not. One thing is clear, he's only made it worse. And that includes bailing out GM.

Once you find yourself in a hole, the first step is stop digging, not order new steam shovels to stimulate more digging and make the hole wider - and then bail out Acme SteamShovelCo because they made bad decisions and got themselves into a hole as well.
 
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MacGuffin

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Well, what would have been the alternatives? It's always easy to blame someone and even easier to come up with solutions on hindsight.

The only fault I can see with Obama, is that he hesitated too long. Now he doesn't have the means to really act anymore. Also I think he should have at least tried to make some blood-and-tears speeches to make the American people aware of the seriousness of the situation. According to polls, most Americans haven't really grasped the seriousness of the situation even now.
 
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Spectre

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Well, what would have been the alternatives?
For GM? Government backed (if needed) Chapter 11 - a FULL, by the book Chapter 11, with requisite court administration and oversight. It has precedent; that's what the first Chrysler bailout essentially was minus the courts. Chapter 11 is protection from creditors while you reorganize, in the US. Chapter 7 is liquidation of assets to the highest bidder. Many famous American companies have gotten in over their heads and come out the other side just fine - Hershey and Heinz come to mind, as does Donald Trump's gambling empire, which has filed for Chapter 11 not once but twice.

Under Chapter 11, the business continues to operate and most of their obligations such as warranty and support must still be met. Employees are not automatically laid off, production is not automatically stopped. What comes out the other end of a Chapter 11 is the same company, just leaner, meaner, and stripped down to essentials (in theory.)
 
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MacGuffin

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For GM I agree with you. We have discussed that a couple of years ago and were basically on the same side, remember? But the political impact of letting GM go bankrupt obviously seemed too big for the politician in Obama.

He had the choice between the black death and cholera. I can promise you, that he would be blamed for NOT saving GM today, if he had acted the other way :p
 
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Spectre

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For GM I agree with you. We have discussed that a couple of years ago and were basically on the same side, remember? But the political impact of letting GM go bankrupt obviously seemed too big for the politician in Obama.

He had the choice between the black death and cholera. I can promise you, that he would be blamed for NOT saving GM today, if he acted the other way :p
Actually, the ironic thing is that GM is back on its downward spiral again and he's being blamed for it (correctly).

The problem for Obama wasn't 'the politician' per se but the fact that one of the first things to get looked at hard in a Chapter 11 is labor costs and existing union contracts. And Obama's backers really didn't want people getting a look at that.

Here's where the irony comes in. Federal bankruptcy courts in the US are notoriously impartial and very well versed in what comprises a functional business and what does not. If GM had gone into Chapter 11, the chances were such that what emerged out the other side could have been a huge powerhouse in the automotive industry - the core of GM stripped of the anchors, bloat and deadweight holding it down. They could have been in a better position even than Ford, who is reliably profitable with good product these days, but still has archaic labor contract issues holding them back in some areas. It is very common for a company that goes through Chapter 11 successfully to be significantly more competitive than anyone else in the field at least for a while after it finishes the process, simply because they've shed a lot of legacy issues.

It's pretty much a certainty that GM would be better off than they are now. Obama's intervention, in fact, made it worse. If he'd simply sent it into Chapter 11, he might be getting screamed at by some unionists, but he'd be getting credit for saving GM instead of having his lies exposed.

Sometimes the smartest thing to do to fix a problem is nothing.
 
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JCE

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Thank god I bleed Ford blue because GM is even more worthless than I had originally believed. Not honoring warranties? WTF?
 

Bubs360

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Looks like I was right to believe that GM's promises were as worthless as their vehicle lineup.
 

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YF19pilot said:
The debt ceiling was raised and there were no real cuts made, just the promise to do so via some (constitutionally questionable) super committee. At the same time Obama helped turn the whole thing into a circus.
No, the deal calls for over 2 trillion in non-defense discretionary spending cuts, along with the super committee's job of finding another 1.5 trillion in cuts/revenue. For a 2.4 trillion bump in the debt ceiling. And the "super committee" is just that: a committee. It's idiotic and designed solely to insulate lawmakers from the political fallout of austerity measures, but it's constitutional.

:lol: I haven't seen that much bullshit since, well since I looked at Red State this morning, but nevermind.

Once you find yourself in a hole, the first step is stop digging, not order new steam shovels to stimulate more digging and make the hole wider - and then bail out Acme SteamShovelCo because they made bad decisions and got themselves into a hole as well.
That's a cute analogy, if completely meaningless. You don't get out of a recession by slashing discretionary spending. Austerity measures will only further hurt the economy. It's not a matter of politics, partisan bull, etc, it's macroeconomics 101. But the GOP has realized that brutal austerity measures are just the ticket to dismantle social programs, environmental protection, and the government itself. The US isn't Greece and we don't have a debt problem, at least not in the short term. Debt exploded under Obama because he inherited two wars, the lowest effective taxes in decades and a serious recession. Add to that the half-assed stimulus efforts.

The only fault I can see with Obama, is that he hesitated too long. Now he doesn't have the means to really act anymore. Also I think he should have at least tried to make some blood-and-tears speeches to make the American people aware of the seriousness of the situation. According to polls, most Americans haven't really grasped the seriousness of the situation even now.
The Democrats largely squandered their 2 year majority. They passed a poorly targeted stimulus package that only managed to stop the economic slide, not reverse it. There was no jobs bill. No immigration reform. They pointlessly debated healthcare reform for months. Decided to wait until the House was under Republican control before they bumped the spending limit. So on and so forth. And Obama, for some reason, thinks there is more to gain playing the cool, calm "adult" and attempting to negotiate with a bunch of nuts who'd rather watch the US burn than see him re-elected. We'll see what he has to say Wednesday.

If he'd simply sent it into Chapter 11, he might be getting screamed at by some unionists, but he'd be getting credit for saving GM instead of having his lies exposed.
No, he'd be getting hammered by the GOP (and everyone else) for allowing tens of thousands of Americans to lose their jobs at the start of a recession. I would've liked to see GM go through a real Chapter 11 too, but the economic cost then (and now) is too high.

:think: Wait a minute, this isn't the politics subforum.
 
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scpunk11

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This does seem to have shifted in a political direction. Some rather well argued posts that exemplify the rift with in American politics
 

Spectre

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Well one question is applicable to you Americanistas - is GM a well run company now do you think?
Mostly the same management as before all this happened. All they changed was the CEO and a couple of other guys, otherwise the same board of directors, etc., etc. They didn't hire a disruptor or dynamic figure like Mulally or Jobs in as CEO either, so it's pretty much been business as usual.

I'm sure you can figure out the rest.
 
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_HighVoltage_

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This is just textbook stuff. The textbook being Atlas Shrugged...
 

argatoga

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Actually, the ironic thing is that GM is back on its downward spiral again and he's being blamed for it (correctly).

The problem for Obama wasn't 'the politician' per se but the fact that one of the first things to get looked at hard in a Chapter 11 is labor costs and existing union contracts. And Obama's backers really didn't want people getting a look at that.

Here's where the irony comes in. Federal bankruptcy courts in the US are notoriously impartial and very well versed in what comprises a functional business and what does not. If GM had gone into Chapter 11, the chances were such that what emerged out the other side could have been a huge powerhouse in the automotive industry - the core of GM stripped of the anchors, bloat and deadweight holding it down. They could have been in a better position even than Ford, who is reliably profitable with good product these days, but still has archaic labor contract issues holding them back in some areas. It is very common for a company that goes through Chapter 11 successfully to be significantly more competitive than anyone else in the field at least for a while after it finishes the process, simply because they've shed a lot of legacy issues.

It's pretty much a certainty that GM would be better off than they are now. Obama's intervention, in fact, made it worse. If he'd simply sent it into Chapter 11, he might be getting screamed at by some unionists, but he'd be getting credit for saving GM instead of having his lies exposed.

Sometimes the smartest thing to do to fix a problem is nothing.
I agree they should have gone through a Chapter 11, but concerning the topic that GM wouldn't need to honor warranties either.

This is just textbook stuff. The textbook being Atlas Shrugged...
I'm waiting for the cosmic ray sound weapons. :p

//I have issues with Ayn Rand, but this isn't the thread for it so I'll leave it there.
 
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