The Israel / Palestine mire (again)

prizrak

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Firecat;n3543725 said:
Firstly, we need to take “Jewish” away from “state”....because I’m fine with Israel existing, I don’t necessarily think it has to be considered “Jewish” ....defacto it is.

but it’s a silly discussion to have because Israel exists, so it doesn’t really matter what Arabs think. Same argument can be made about Israelis or Jews....they don’t want a Palestinian state to exist.....the difference of course is that a Palestinian State doesn’t exist....so their “will” has proved more consequential.
That's completely incorrect, there was a two state solution from inception which the Jews happily accepted. Any proposal for a Palestinian state alongside the Jewish state gets shut down by Arabs, not by Jews.*

*Yes I am aware of the settlements issue and I'm not saying Israel is all warm and fuzzy but they certainly seem to be a lot more amenable to sharing the land than the Arabs.
 

Firecat

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You can’t continue to cling to some decision made over 70 years ago.

Also you can’t claim amenability to sharing land and criticize settlements. The existence of growing settlements shows a complete unwillingness to share land....because they are taking more land.

I’ve stated in the other thread some time ago that I’m now for a one-state solution. It’s the only way forward. Any Palestinian state will ultimately fail.....for a variety of reasons.
 

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LeVeL;n3543608 said:
We each present arguments and when I dismantle yours you come back with "it's pointless to argue with you". No, it's not - you're just completely unwilling/unable to consider my arguments. ON topics of Israel and guns I am pretty well versed and you are utterly unwilling/unable to debate me.
www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart called
 

prizrak

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Firecat;n3543729 said:
You can’t continue to cling to some decision made over 70 years ago.

Also you can’t claim amenability to sharing land and criticize settlements. The existence of growing settlements shows a complete unwillingness to share land....because they are taking more land.

I’ve stated in the other thread some time ago that I’m now for a one-state solution. It’s the only way forward. Any Palestinian state will ultimately fail.....for a variety of reasons.
There have been multiple two state solutions presented over the years and inevitably the arabic side says no. Unless those settlements are actually operated by the Israeli government and considered their property they are not land grabs. Either way like I said in the other thread giving up settlements can be one of the requirements in any two state solution. I agree with you on the one state solution, I see no reason beyond "the way you praise our mutual imaginary friend is different from the way I do" for Arabs and Jews to not share same land peacefully but it doesn't look like the "palestinians" are OK with that.
 

Firecat

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prizrak;n3543800 said:
Unless those settlements are actually operated by the Israeli government and considered their property they are not land grabs.
I think you need to clarify your point here. The Israeli government has been expanding settlements and incentivize Israelis to live there.

prizrak;n3543800 said:
Either way like I said in the other thread giving up settlements can be one of the requirements in any two state solution. I agree with you on the one state solution, I see no reason beyond "the way you praise our mutual imaginary friend is different from the way I do" for Arabs and Jews to not share same land peacefully but it doesn't look like the "palestinians" are OK with that.
i can fully acknowledge that there are Palestinians that don’t want to share the land. You seem to think it’s just the Palestinians (apparently all of them) that feel that way and that the feeling isn’t shared by Israelis?

on the face of that one can only say it’s patently absurd. But as long as you carry water for an extremist position and allow them to dictate policy, a solution will never be found.

Actually, to ignore the extremists in Israel that are against peace does a disservice to the Israelis that have died because they opposed them. Like Rabin, who was assassinated for trying to make peace. So don’t act like the Israelis are angels and just victims to evil Palestinians. Be better than that and acknowledge all aspects of the conflict.
 

prizrak

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I never claimed that one side was angels and the other demons, but only side has a government whose charter lists killing all of <certain nationality of people> everywhere in the world. Of course there are extremists on both sides, but only one side has them as their elected officials.

Also if Israel really wanted destruction of palestinian arabs what’s stopping them? Militarily speaking they are clearly superior and enjoy support from the worlds last super power
 

Firecat

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Like bringing up the reject UN proposal, bringing up the Hamas charter is another tired old trope. Do you think the Likud charter expresses love for Palestinians?

To end the violence and the hatred that is being passed from generation to generation you need to eliminate the reasons for it. A endless occupation with frequent land grabs does not make the situation better. The occupation is the issue.
 

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Firecat;n3543908 said:
Like bringing up the reject UN proposal ...is another tired old trope.
It's important to know the history of the tensions. The rejection of the UN proposal is on of many signs that the Arabs have never been interested in a two-state solution. They want Israel gone entirely.


Firecat;n3543908 said:
...bringing up the Hamas charter is another tired old trope. Do you think the Likud charter expresses love for Palestinians?
Well, the Likud charter does not call for the murder of all Muslims or even all Palestinians. The Hamas charter, however, does call for the murder of all Jews and the destruction of Israel. It's a little difficult for me to sympathize with people that quite literally want to kill me.

​​​​​​
Firecat;n3543908 said:
To end the violence and the hatred that is being passed from generation to generation you need to eliminate the reasons for it. A endless occupation with frequent land grabs does not make the situation better. The occupation is the issue.
They're not angry because of "the occupation" - they're angry because Israel exists in the first place.
 

prizrak

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Firecat;n3543908 said:
Like bringing up the reject UN proposal, bringing up the Hamas charter is another tired old trope. Do you think the Likud charter expresses love for Palestinians?

To end the violence and the hatred that is being passed from generation to generation you need to eliminate the reasons for it. A endless occupation with frequent land grabs does not make the situation better. The occupation is the issue.
Lev kind of covered it already but to discount the history of tensions and to discount the Hamas charter is to be dishonest about the situation. This did not arise overnight there are decades (if not thousands of years)
 

Firecat

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You guys are missing the point. Nothing in the past has to matter. Living in the past is the issue too, which inflames tensions. Look at the situation presently. Does the status quo make sense? Is continuing to occupy and build settlements the way to move forward? Is violence the way to move forward?


So end the occupation, give the Palestinians independence (if the world, Israelis, Palestinians want a 2 state solution)......if that doesn't end the violence and start to stem the hatred then figure something else out. You have to start somewhere though, and by establishing statehood should be the first step in conjunction with creating a viable government and system to govern. Worst case scenario it fails. There really isn't much to lose, not like anything there is violets and roses.
 

prizrak

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Firecat;n3543914 said:
So end the occupation, give the Palestinians independence (if the world, Israelis, Palestinians want a 2 state solution)......if that doesn't end the violence and start to stem the hatred then figure something else out. You have to start somewhere though, and by establishing statehood should be the first step in conjunction with creating a viable government and system to govern. Worst case scenario it fails. There really isn't much to lose, not like anything there is violets and roses.
The part that you are missing that a two state solution has been presented more than once. It wasn't just presented in 1947, there were multiple times that a 2 state solution was presented to both sides and all of those times only one side accepts it. In other words the Arabs consider ALL of the land as illegally occupied, unless that view changes you will not see a peaceful solution.

I would be perfectly happy with a 2 state solution that both sides accept and stick to, or a one state solution that allows both sides to live in peace, I find it idiotic that two people who are as close as Jews and Arabs (if you believe the bible/torah they are literally half brothers) cannot share same land and live side by side.
 

LeVeL

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Firecat;n3543914 said:
Nothing in the past has to matter.
You have to learn from past mistakes.

When Israel did not exist, the Arabs did not want a two state solution. When Israel did not have a single settlement, the Arabs did not want a two state solution. When the territory that the Palestinians want for a state belonged to fellow Arabs, there was no Palestinian state created. When Israel gave up the Sinai in exchange for peace, violence did not subside. When Israel gave control of Gaza to the Palestinians in exchange for peace, violence continued.

Ignoring these lessons from the past will simply lead to the same mistakes and, yes, more violence.
 

LeVeL

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UN alarmed as US cuts aid to Palestinian refugee agency

The UN has expressed serious concern at the US decision to withhold more than half of a tranche of funding for the agency supporting Palestinian refugees.

Washington will hand over $60m (?43m) of a planned payment to the UN Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa), but keep back $65m until it carries out "reforms".

UN Secretary General Ant?nio Guterres said it could be forced to cut health care, education and social services.

Millions of refugees' dignity and human security were at stake, Unrwa said.

The Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) accused the US of "targeting the most vulnerable segment of the Palestinian people".

Earlier this month, President Donald Trump threatened to cut aid to the Palestinians over what he called their unwillingness to negotiate with Israel.

On Sunday, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas sharply attacked Mr Trump's peace efforts, saying he would no longer accept the US as a mediator following its controversial recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

Why is the aid being suspended?

The US is the largest single donor to Unrwa, providing $368m in 2016 and funding almost 30% of its operations to help some five million refugees across the Middle East.

On Tuesday, US state department spokeswoman Heather Nauert told reporters that the Trump administration had committed to a voluntary contribution of $60m for 2018, so that Unrwa did not run out of funds and schools and health care facilities would not have to close.

An additional $65m of funding would be "held for future consideration" but not cancelled, she said.


Ms Nauert explained that the US would "like to see some revisions made in how Unrwa operates", to ensure that the money was "best spent" so that people got the services they needed.

She did not mention whether US bilateral aid to the Palestinians was also at risk. That amounted to $260m in 2016, with much of the money going towards projects administered by the US Agency for International Development (USAid).

By contrast, Israel receives more than $3bn in military aid per year from the US.

What impact could this have?

Unrwa Commissioner-General, Pierre Kr?henb?hl, warned that the agency was "now confronted with the most dramatic financial crisis" in its 69-year history.

"Given the long, trusted, and historic relationship between the United States and Unrwa, this reduced contribution threatens one of the most successful and innovative human development endeavours in the Middle East," he said.


He called on other UN member states to increase their contributions in response.

"At stake is the access of 525,000 boys and girls in 700 Unrwa schools, and their future," he said.

"At stake is the dignity and human security of millions of Palestine refugees, in need of emergency food assistance and other support in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

"At stake is the access of refugees to primary health care, including pre-natal care and other life-saving services."

What do the Palestinians say?

Hanan Ashrawi, a member of the PLO's executive committee, accused the Trump administration of seeking to "dismantle" Unrwa at Israel's behest.


"This administration is thereby targeting the most vulnerable segment of the Palestinian people and depriving the refugees of the right to education, health, shelter and a dignified life," she said.

"It is also creating conditions that will generate further instability throughout the region and will demonstrate that it has no compunction in targeting the innocent."

What is Israel's stance?

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu - who has called for Unrwa's funding to be cut gradually and its responsibilities transferred to the UN's global refugee agency, the UNHCR, arguing that it "perpetuates the Palestinian problem" - expressed measured support on Wednesday.

Asked by reporters during a visit to India if he welcomed the US move, he replied: "Of course, but I still suggest, because I think there are certain needs, to do what I have said... every step taken also contains some risk."

Some observers in Israel have warned it might have to deal with a humanitarian crisis if Unrwa was forced to halt operations in the Palestinian territories.
Trump: If you're not going to cooperate on peace talks, we're going to cut aid.
PLO: Screw you! We don't even recognize you as the mediator anymore!!!1!
Trump: Mmk, aid cut. Hey, Europe, put your money where your mouth is and go help the Palestinians. ::grabs popcorn::
 

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https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ticizes-israel

One day after Israeli forces fired on protesters and killed 60 Palestinians along the Gaza border, the U.N.'s human rights commissioner says that those who were shot included women, children, journalists, first responders and bystanders.

"We condemn the appalling, deadly violence in Gaza yesterday," said Rupert Colville, spokesperson for the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights.

While acknowledging that some Palestinian demonstrators tried to damage the barbed wire fence that separates Gaza from Israel, Colville said that in the commissioner's view, attempts to cross or damage a fence "do not amount to a threat to life or serious injury and are not sufficient grounds for the use of live ammunition."

Lethal force, he said, should only be a measure of last resort.

The violence exploded Monday, as Israel celebrated the U.S. moving its embassy to Jerusalem, a city that is claimed by both Israelis and Palestinians, and the status of which has long been regarded by America's biggest allies as an issue best resolved in multilateral peace talks. The U.S. has formally recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital — another step it had long avoided taking.

At least 40,000 Palestinians gathered to protest, according to an estimate from the Israel Defense Forces, which says, "Hamas is coercing Gazans to risk their lives." More protests are expected Tuesday.

The military dropped leaflets in the area, telling people to stay away from the security fence on the eastern half of the Gaza Strip. The Defense Forces have accused Iran of giving $100 to people who will approach and attempt to harm the Gaza barrier.
Israeli forces responded to the large gatherings at or near the fence with tear gas, plastic bullets and live ammunition. Protesters were seen throwing Molotov cocktails, flying kites with flaming devices attached and hurling stones. The military also said it killed three Palestinians who had been trying to plant an explosive along the fence.

In addition to their anger over the controversial embassy move, Palestinians also demonstrated in anticipation of Tuesday's commemoration of the day they call Nakba, or day of catastrophe, when the creation of Israel 70 years ago turned more than 700,000 Palestinians into refugees.

The confluence of events led to split-screen coverage of Monday's embassy unveiling, with U.S. guests led by President Trump's daughter and son-in-law, Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, smiling and celebrating inside the embassy as, along the Gaza border, black smoke billowed from burning tires and gunshots rang out in what an IDF spokesperson called a day of "unprecedented violence."

One day later, the first Palestinian funerals have been held and Gaza's medical facilities are stretched to their limit, having coped with 2,771 injuries. Of that number, 1,359 wounds were from live bullets, the Gaza Health Ministry said.

The violence capped weeks of protests by Palestinians, who began demonstrating against Israel's blockade of Gaza back in March.

In that time, as Israeli newspaper Haaretz reports, "Hamas and the other resistance movements in Gaza refrained from launching rockets into Israel. No Israeli soldier or resident was injured. Israel, on the other hand, acted against the unarmed demonstrators with sniper fire, live fire that killed and maimed."

The newspaper made those remarks in its lead editorial Tuesday, titled "Stop the Bloodbath."

Michael Lynk, the U.N. special rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territory, says Israel is guilty of "blatant excessive use of force," in breach of international human rights laws.

Saying Israel was denying rights of expression and assembly, Lynk issued a statement on Tuesday calling for "true accountability for those in military and political command who have ordered or allowed this force to be once again employed at the Gaza fence."

Israeli officials say that Hamas has used the protests to cover terrorist activities and to distract Palestinians from its "failures as a governing body."

Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar has joined at least one of the weekly protests against the blockade; he was seen again on Monday. His public appearances prompted new comments from Israeli Public Defense Minister Gilad Erdan, who told the Ynet News site, "We need to go back to targeted killings, and they need to go back to hiding underground and fearing for their lives, not organizing the masses to carry out terror attacks."

Erdan said, "It's time for the heads of Hamas to pay a personal price for organizing these terror attacks."

On Monday afternoon, the White House blamed the death toll on the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas.

Principal deputy press secretary Raj Shah said, "Hamas bears the responsibility," adding, "Look, this is a propaganda attempt. I mean, this is a gruesome and unfortunate propaganda attempt. I think the Israeli government has spent weeks trying to handle this without violence, and we find it very unfortunate."

Shah reiterated the White House's position that Israel has the right to defend itself.

When asked about possible peace talks between Israelis and Palestinians — and the timing of the most recent White House contact with Palestinian leaders — Shah said, "Well, I don't honestly have an answer for you on that. I'll get back to you."


Once again, Israel does the attacking, and they call the Palestinians the aggressors.
 
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JimCorrigan

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https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ticizes-israel





Once again, Israel does the attacking, and they call the Palestinians the aggressors.
Once again, a terrorist organization (Hamas) engages in guerilla warfare by charging an international border, offers payment to civilians if they are shot, or to their families if they are killed, openly admits to over 50 of the 60 dead being their own members, admits to sending members/civilians to the border with flags painted with swastikas, openly speak on NPR about wanting Jews to burn, and the mainstream narrative is that Israel has no right to defend itself.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/30698/senior-hamas-official-50-those-killed-gaza-were-ben-shapiro
 

JimCorrigan

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https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ticizes-israel





Once again, Israel does the attacking, and they call the Palestinians the aggressors.
Once again, a terrorist organization (Hamas) engages in guerilla warfare by charging an international border, offers payment to civilians if they are shot, or to their families if they are killed, openly admits to over 50 of the 60 dead being their own members, admits to sending members/civilians to the border with flags painted with swastikas, openly speak on NPR about wanting Jews to burn, and the mainstream narrative is that Israel has no right to defend itself.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/30698/senior-hamas-official-50-those-killed-gaza-were-ben-shapiro
 

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Yes, civilians with rocks are a huge threat and need helicopters to help repel the hordes.
Irrelevant.

A genocidal, politically sponsored mob was rushing a border. Should Israel have allowed them in, hoping that if they did so Hamas would have suddenly changed its Jew-hating, Swastika sporting ways and settle down for tea and crumpets?

I write you angry letters for years condemning you and your very existence and my desire to kill you and your family. You warn me not to cross (insert physical line) onto your property or you will take that as a hostile threat. I burn your crops, I launch rockets, and then suddenly I decide to cross the line holding “only” a rock. You gonna let me continue towards your front door, your children?
 

prizrak

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GRtak;n3549230 said:
Yes, civilians with rocks are a huge threat and need helicopters to help repel the hordes.
If I were to kick your door in at 3 am would you welcome me in, or do something to stop me from getting in up to and including deadly force?

Also just so you know if a mob with rocks tried to do that to a US embassy or a military base they would be shot under AMERICAN rules of engagement. This is according to a friend who was an MP in the Navy, they literally had standing orders to open fire on anyone who gets past a certain line.
 

GRtak

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They were all killed on their own side of the fence. They never got very close to the fence at all. I would also call the helicopter dropping tear gas on the Palestinian side something of an incursion.
 
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