The Israel / Palestine mire (again)

prizrak

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Umm:
1 - They were trying to breach the fence were they not?
2 - So dropping tear gas to disperse an unruly violent mob is now an incursion?
3 - Yes when you try to enter a secure area you tend to get stopped BEFORE you get in not after, again this would be within US rules of engagement.

You call Israel an aggressor but far as I understand it, Israeli forces didn't go in there and start randomly shooting, they were up against a violent mob. This is the part that boggles my mind when it comes to how you treat the situation. This is a violent mob, it's not a peaceful protest, that mob had a large number of members of a known terrorist organization in it (as admitted by said organization). Israelis tried to disperse it with non-lethal means first and when it failed they went to measures of last resort. How much leeway do you give terrorists before you take them down?

P.S. What would you have done?
 
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GRtak

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When the helicopter is on the wrong side of the border yes, that is an incursion.

It is not US policy to shoot civilians that are near the border. Once they cross it is not even the policy.

The "violent mob" was on the other side of the border.


I have said it before, but I guess it needs to be repeated. Both sides in this are very well adapted to being assholes, but once again, Israel is clearly the bigger asshole.
 

prizrak

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GRtak;n3549252 said:
When the helicopter is on the wrong side of the border yes, that is an incursion.
So you prefer they would wait for the breach and then shoot to kill instead of trying to disperse them with non lethal means?
It is not US policy to shoot civilians that are near the border. Once they cross it is not even the policy.
Sure about that?
https://www.texasobserver.org/border...mexico-police/
TX observer said:
while on patrol near the bridge connecting Juarez to El Paso, U.S. Border Patrol Agent Jesus Mesa Jr. fired his gun into Mexico and struck Sergio Adrián Hernández Güereca below his left eye, killing the unarmed 15 year old.

cross-border shootings have become more common. Like most of them, the official investigation into the shooting cleared Mesa and concluded he didn’t violate anyone’s rights “willfully and with the deliberate and specific intent to do something the law forbids.”

second time in recent years that the court has determined the Constitution doesn’t protect you from a bullet fired by police standing in the United States if it kills you in Mexico.

The "violent mob" was on the other side of the border.
O'RLY?
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...a-protest.html
ny magazine said:
Thousands of Palestinian protesters attempted to breach the border fence between Gaza and Israeli territory, hurling rocks and flaming tires, and were turned backby Israeli tear gas and live rifle fire. Protesters also launched several flaming kites across the border.

“Today is the big day when we will cross the fence and tell Israel and the world we will not accept being occupied forever,” Gaza resident Ali, who declined to give his last name, told Reuters.
You have yet to answer the question as to what do you think the right course of action would be?
 
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JimCorrigan

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GRtak;n3549252 said:
When the helicopter is on the wrong side of the border yes, that is an incursion.

It is not US policy to shoot civilians that are near the border. Once they cross it is not even the policy.

The "violent mob" was on the other side of the border.


I have said it before, but I guess it needs to be repeated. Both sides in this are very well adapted to being assholes, but once again, Israel is clearly the bigger asshole.
You haven't mentioned what you think is appropriate action when your life, your existence, has been overtly threatened. I gave examples of clear aggression on the part of Hamas at the lead up of these "protests" (because they were not protests), and your silence would suggest that Israel should do nothing?

Again, how you handle this sort of aggression on your own front steps would speak volumes as to how Israel should handle itself.
 

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GRtak;n3549298 said:
I would not shoot into a crowd that is not close to the fence.
Would you shoot a known terrorist who already (repeatedly, and recently) claims he wants you and your children dead that is approaching your door with violence in his heart?

And spare me the "protestors" or innocent civilians claim, because that would be ignoring the recent history from Hamas openly declaring they wanted to storm the gates and burn the Jews, as well as actively paying out civilians/families who go the border to get shot at or killed, and their time honoured tactics of guerilla warfare.

You've told us what you wouldn't do. What would you do?
 
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GRtak

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Why make him a martyr?

Protests take on many different forms. And if tearing down a fence that is there to keep them caged out of territory that belongs to them isn't a protest, I don't know what is.

I am not playing the game. I have already told you what I would not do.
 

prizrak

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GRtak;n3549324 said:
Protests take on many different forms.
Yes they do and when they are violent they are met with violence.
And if tearing down a fence that is there to keep them caged out of territory that belongs to them isn't a protest, I don't know what is.
By what logic does it belong to them?
I am not playing the game. I have already told you what I would not do.
In other words, you have absolutely no argument other than Israel is evil.
 

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GRtak;n3549324 said:
Why make him a martyr?

Protests take on many different forms. And if tearing down a fence that is there to keep them caged out of territory that belongs to them isn't a protest, I don't know what is.

I am not playing the game. I have already told you what I would not do.
1) Palestinians in Gaza are not caged by Israel, they are simply not allowed unfettered access into another sovereign state.

2) Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Where is your anger at them for keeping the Palestinians "caged?"

3) Palestinians along the West Bank did not engage in these border rushes, and not coincidentally, no one was shot at.

4) Israel abandoned Gaza and left its people to their own devices over 10 years ago. The people chose to elect a terrorist organization, that has since received over 50 million dollars in aid, yet no infrastructure has been built. No schools. No hospitals. Why aren’t you outraged by the complete mispropriation of funds designed to lift the Palestinians out of poverty?

This is no game (a topic which, by the way, you started with your comments indicting Israel’s defense). This is life and death. If you want to debate the past seventy years of Israel’s existence, go right ahead. In the meantime, Israel does exist, and to expect it to lay down and die in the face of overt, clear attempts at infiltration while allowing for other countries to defend their own borders, or people to defend their own homes, is a narrative that genuinely smacks of both hypocrisy and anti-semitism.

FYI, I am not calling you anti-Semitic, but you have to explain to me how you can take your position and it not be precisely that, unless you’re okay with people rushing your property, or your country with murderous, genocidal intent.
 
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prizrak

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Just to add to the above, Arabs living in Israel are on average better off than the ones in "Palestine" splain that one by Israel being evil...
 

GRtak

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Where did I say anyone was evil?

So I am now anti-Semitic because I won't explain myself. Right, you can believe anything you want.
 

prizrak

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GRtak;n3549334 said:
Where did I say anyone was evil?
GRtak;n3549103 said:
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ticizes-israel
Once again, Israel does the attacking, and they call the Palestinians the aggressors.
That certainly seems pretty evil to me...

So I am now anti-Semitic because I won't explain myself. Right, you can believe anything you want.
You are very good at deflecting but you never seem to try and stand by your points.
 

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GRtak;n3549334 said:
So I am now anti-Semitic because I won't explain myself. Right, you can believe anything you want.
Sigh...

JimCorrigan;n3549330 said:
FYI, I am not calling you anti-Semitic, but you have to explain to me how you can take your position and it not be precisely that, unless you’re okay with people rushing your property, or your country with murderous, genocidal intent.
 

GRtak

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FYI, I am not calling you anti-Semitic, but you have to explain to me how you can take your position and it not be precisely that, unless you’re okay with people rushing your property, or your country with murderous, genocidal intent.
 

prizrak

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Yet more deflection with no arguments made whatsoever. I am starting to think that GRtak is a very well written AI.

I'm curious, why do you bother entering into discussions and then not making any kind of points?
 
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JimCorrigan

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“Son, I am disappoint.”

Can’t even be arsed to explain why you think it’s ok for Israel to defend itself against a group, that is hell bent on killing them, from storming the gates.

When you run from inquiry, you have no valid argument. And yes, your position is both anti-semitic and hypocritical unless you would allow a would be killer of your family to waltz into your house and do as he pleases.
 

prizrak

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JimCorrigan;n3549345 said:
“Son, I am disappoint.”

Can’t even be arsed to explain why you think it’s ok for Israel to defend itself against a group, that is hell bent on killing them, from storming the gates.

When you run from inquiry, you have no valid argument. And yes, your position is both anti-semitic and hypocritical unless you would allow a would be killer of your family to waltz into your house and do as he pleases.
Funny thing is that I am perfectly willing to listen to what alternatives there could have been to deadly force but I can't think of any and neither can GRtak apparently...
 

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JimCorrigan;n3549330 said:
1) Palestinians in Gaza are not caged by Israel, they are simply not allowed unfettered access into another sovereign state.

4) Israel abandoned Gaza and left its people to their own devices over 10 years ago. The people chose to elect a terrorist organization, that has since received over 50 million dollars in aid, yet no infrastructure has been built. No schools. No hospitals. Why aren’t you outraged by the complete mispropriation of funds designed to lift the Palestinians out of poverty?
"They're not caged ... they just can't go anywhere. Or trade with anyone else" That's some fucking newspeak if I ever heard it. Gaza is economically crippled by the blockade. Simple fucking fact. Those people elected a terrorist organization to lead them because, in that situation, who wouldn't? And never mind building new schools and hospitals. If you're blocked from importing materials you can't even rebuild the schools and hospitals Israel blew up in the first place.

JimCorrigan said:
In the meantime, Israel does exist, and to expect it to lay down and die in the face of overt, clear attempts at infiltration while allowing for other countries to defend their own borders, or people to defend their own homes, is a narrative that genuinely smacks of both hypocrisy and anti-semitism.
Israel has been spreading into Palestinian lands for how many decades? You want to talk about hypocrisy and deny someone else's right to defend their home?! Get the fuck out of here.

prizrak said:
Just to add to the above, Arabs living in Israel are on average better off than the ones in "Palestine" splain that one by Israel being evil...
You mean the people not living in a blockaded shithole live better lives? Huh, no shit.

Look, you guys want to talk about right and wrong. I guarantee you that shooting unarmed protesters, across a border, is objectively wrong. Any US soldier would go to prison for that. Big no-no. Can't do that. Shouldn't have to explain that, but it's wrong.
 

JimCorrigan

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"They're not caged ... they just can't go anywhere. Or trade with anyone else" That's some fucking newspeak if I ever heard it.
It’s not Israel’s fault that Gaza’s shared border with Egypt is closed.

It’s not Israel’s fault that in the ten years since they left Gaza to its own devices, all the funding Hamas has received has gone to finding more creative ways to kill Israelis, and not to bettering the lives of Palestinians.

Gaza is economically crippled by the blockade. Simple fucking fact. Those people elected a terrorist organization to lead them because, in that situation, who wouldn't? And never mind building new schools and hospitals. If you're blocked from importing materials you can't even rebuild the schools and hospitals Israel blew up in the first place.
Israel has continued to allowed for humanitarian aid and supples to go through that border. Again, since there’s a border with Egypt, why can’t Gaza get its building supplies that way?

Israel has been spreading into Palestinian lands for how many decades? You want to talk about hypocrisy and deny someone else's right to defend their home?! Get the fuck out of here.
I never defended Israeli settlements, but guess what? There are none in Gaza. The settlements are all in the West Bank, and there were no attempts at border rushing there. I wonder why that could be....? (Hint: read below)

Look, you guys want to talk about right and wrong. I guarantee you that shooting unarmed protesters, across a border, is objectively wrong. Any US soldier would go to prison for that. Big no-no. Can't do that. Shouldn't have to explain that, but it's wrong.
53 of 60 killed were members if Hamas or ISIS, all confirmed by their respective groups. Hamas pays money to civilians if they get shot rushing the border, and a bonus to the family if civilians are killed.

A Hamas leader was on NPR and not quoted out of context as saying the purposes of this uprising was to get the Jews to “burn.”

Only a fool would deny the complicated, tortuous history of the middle-east and fail to recognize either side their just grievances. But this particular excursion clearly can be blamed only at Hamas’ feet. And only a fool would deny the clear, stated evidence that support these facts in order to merely buy into the lazily researched, knee-jerk mainstream media narrative.
 
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