The Israel / Palestine mire (again)

prizrak

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tigger, Jim already covered it but in the broader sense what is stopping "Palestinians" from simply seeking representation in the Knesset and rest of government and simply living side by the side with the Jews?
 

tigger

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JimCorrigan;n3549354 said:
It’s not Israel’s fault that Gaza’s shared border with Egypt is closed.
Eh, sure it is. Israel built that fucking kettle that is Gaza. Why does Eqypt support that blockade? Because the US is Israel's ally, to a fucking fault, and Egypt just wants some of that sweet sweet military aid. That's most of it. You can add that Egypt doesn't want Hamas/Hezbollah whoever in their backyard ... but they've been dealing with that shit for what, 50 years?

Hell you can argue modern Islamic extremism started in Egypt. Maybe Gaza should blockade them. Anyway.

JimCorrigan said:
It’s not Israel’s fault that in the ten years since they left Gaza to its own devices ... Israel has continued to allowed for humanitarian aid and supples to go through that border.
So they've been left to their own devices ... but there's a blockade. Humanitarian aid is great and all but it doesn't pay the bills. Doesn't make a government function. Doesn't rebuild hospitals and schools. Doesn't employ the thousands of angry young men who've grown up getting told their being fucked by Israel. And then they see themselves actually getting fucked by Israel.

You don't defeat an insurgency by making day to day life worse. That's been proven over and over and over ... and fucking over. Israel's doing it wrong. Quit supporting bad policy. Oh, and supporting unarmed people getting shot. I think that point got lost in your response. Please justify shooting unarmed people rattling a fucking fence.

JimCorrigan said:
I never defended Israeli settlements, but guess what? There are none in Gaza. The settlements are all in the West Bank, and there were no attempts at border rushing there. I wonder why that could be....? (Hint: read below)
Dude, don't get fucking sanctimonious. Think through the situation. Think about the socioeconomic situations. How people can be wound up. Go ahead with that mental exercise and see if you can answer your own questions there.

JimCorrigan said:
53 of 60 killed were members if Hamas or ISIS, all confirmed by their respective groups. Hamas pays money to civilians if they get shot rushing the border, and a bonus to the family if civilians are killed.
Sure. ISIS and Hamas fight with each other to claim who did what. But for your second point, if Hamas is paying people to rush the border you need to ask yourself why that's so appealing. Yeah, they fucking hate Israel. But they need to eat. Their families need to eat. That's a much more immediate need.

JimCorrigan said:
Only a fool would deny the complicated, tortuous history of the middle-east and fail to recognize either side their just grievances. But this particular excursion clearly can be blamed only at Hamas’ feet. And only a fool would deny the clear, stated evidence that support these facts in order to merely buy into the lazily researched, knee-jerk mainstream media narrative.
"Oh the facts are so clear ... but you're a fucking idiot if you don't agree with me!"

Really? Reeeaalllyyy? If you're just gonna be a blind partisan, what's the point of this?

prizrak;n3549361 said:
... what is stopping "Palestinians" from simply seeking representation in the Knesset and rest of government and simply living side by the side with the Jews?
Well Gaza is outside Israeli sovereignty, at least for the purposes of elections. And Palestinians in the West Bank, correct me if I'm wrong, can't vote in Israeli elections. They can vote for local West Bank shit, but Israel generally controls taxation and budgets in the West Bank.
 
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prizrak

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tigger;n3549372 said:
Well Gaza is outside Israeli sovereignty, at least for the purposes of elections. And Palestinians in the West Bank, correct me if I'm wrong, can't vote in Israeli elections. They can vote for local West Bank shit, but Israel generally controls taxation and budgets in the West Bank.
Certainly but a lot of it is historically due to Palestinians complete and utter lack of acceptance of Israel and any two state proposals over the years. I'm sure if a joint state with joint representation was proposed and followed through Israel would embrace it, if for no other reason than it being way too god damn expensive to deal with all this crap on daily basis.

I find the whole thing retarded, Jews and Arabs are literally same fucking people that shit's even in the Torah. I understand that the Sykes-Pikot fucked middle east up to the point where we might not ever recover but at minimum Israel/Palestine bullshit should have been put to rest 70 years ago by making a joint government.
 

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tigger;n3549372 said:
Eh, sure it is. Israel built that fucking kettle that is Gaza. Why does Eqypt support that blockade? Because the US is Israel's ally, to a fucking fault, and Egypt just wants some of that sweet sweet military aid. That's most of it. You can add that Egypt doesn't want Hamas/Hezbollah whoever in their backyard ... but they've been dealing with that shit for what, 50 years?

Hell you can argue modern Islamic extremism started in Egypt. Maybe Gaza should blockade them. Anyway.
Again, how is that Israel's fault?

Regardless, it refutes the notion that Israel has Gazans "caged."

tigger;n3549372 said:
So they've been left to their own devices ... but there's a blockade. Humanitarian aid is great and all but it doesn't pay the bills. Doesn't make a government function. Doesn't rebuild hospitals and schools. Doesn't employ the thousands of angry young men who've grown up getting told their being fucked by Israel. And then they see themselves actually getting fucked by Israel.

You don't defeat an insurgency by making day to day life worse. That's been proven over and over and over ... and fucking over. Israel's doing it wrong. Quit supporting bad policy. Oh, and supporting unarmed people getting shot. I think that point got lost in your response. Please justify shooting unarmed people rattling a fucking fence.
Maybe not having a government whose charter includes genocide would be a good start.

I'm not supporting any policy, other than Israel's right to protect itself from attack. The fact pattern here is clear:
1. Hamas paying families
2. Hamas declaring they want Jews to burn
3. Hamas openly declaring they're gonna storm the border.

What don't you understand?

tigger;n3549372 said:
Dude, don't get fucking sanctimonious. Think through the situation. Think about the socioeconomic situations. How people can be wound up. Go ahead with that mental exercise and see if you can answer your own questions there.
You can call me sanctimonious all you like. It doesn't change the facts (there's that dirty word again) that there are no settlements along Gaza, and where there are settlements in the West Bank, which is not Hamas territory, there were no border rushes.

tigger;n3549372 said:
Sure. ISIS and Hamas fight with each other to claim who did what. But for your second point, if Hamas is paying people to rush the border you need to ask yourself why that's so appealing. Yeah, they fucking hate Israel. But they need to eat. Their families need to eat. That's a much more immediate need.
Israel isn't stopping these people from eating. Again, their government has received untold millions in funds and UN humanitarian aid. Rushing the border of a country they have been told not to enter isn't going to get them fed, or taken care of, and they know that.


tigger;n3549372 said:
"Oh the facts are so clear ... but you're a fucking idiot if you don't agree with me!"

Really? Reeeaalllyyy? If you're just gonna be a blind partisan, what's the point of this?
Go back and look at my post history in the political section You'll find I'm hardly partisan. I don't care much for Israeli settlements in the West Bank, for example. Again, I made it pretty clear there is blame on both sides for the long term travesty that is the middle east.

But this particular incident is all Hamas' doing. The facts, as stated by me many times over the past week or so, clearly show it. And so unless you can refute them with something other than an emotional tirade, let it be known that the partisan, the person arguing from emotion and not logic, isn't me.
 
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prizrak

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.e285464b6a2a
Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip fired more than 50 rockets and mortar shells into Israel on Tuesday
One of the mortars in the first round of fire early Tuesday struck the yard of a kindergarten
In response to Tuesday’s escalation, he said, the military hit military targets in Gaza and destroyed an additional tunnel built to attack Israel. Conricus said the tunnel was unusual in that it snaked under Gaza’s southern border into Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula and then made a U-turn back into Israel. He said it was the 10th tunnel discovered and destroyed by Israel since October.
It's just some civilians along a fence bruh...
 
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GRtak

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Yes, pick out the best of the worst to reinforce your narrative. How about this part from the same article.

Tensions have been soaring between Israel and Gaza for the past few months. Residents of the coastal enclave, which has been under land and sea blockade by Israel and Egypt since Hamas wrestled power over the strip more than a decade ago, have been holding weekly demonstrations at the Israeli border fence. They are demanding a right to return to land that now sits inside Israel and expressing frustration over a growing humanitarian crisis in what they describe as an open-air prison.

Earlier this month, on just one day of the protests, Israeli forces killed more than 60 Gazans, prompting harsh criticism from around the world over what critics said were heavy-handed tactics by Israel. Thousands of people were also injured by Israeli snipers.

On Tuesday, a fleet of about 65 boats set sail from Gaza, attempting to break through Israel’s sea blockade to take some of those injured in the demonstrations abroad for medical treatment. Israel has not granted permits to all of the injured to cross into the other Palestinian territory on the West Bank for treatment. Hospitals in Gaza say they cannot cope with the high number of people who need medical care.

Nobody ever said that there weren't attacks made by the Palestinians, but you can't deny that they have something to protest. What would you do if you were kicked off your land and told you can't go back to it?
 

prizrak

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I picked out the parts that clearly illustrate aggression on the part of the militants in Gaza, in this current cycle was anything done by Israel that was not in response to actions from the Gazans? Yes Israel retaliated, to aggression from the other side. Also why are there no harsh criticisms of Palestinians launching rockets/mortars into Israel?

What would you do if you were kicked off your land and told you can't go back to it?
Do you remember how they got kicked off? They attacked a *UN created* state of Israel and got their asses dominated by a country that was 3 days old.

Imagine that Mexico tried to pull this shit in CA or TX how quickly we would level the entire place with massive invasion force? Yet those are former Mexican territories...
 

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The response was not proportional, and that has been the point I have been trying to make all along. They clearly have a right protest( that is a natural right in my opinion), and an issue to protest.
 

prizrak

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And again you have not said what a proportional response should have been. They can peacefully protest, throwing rocks and burning tires over the border to another country as well as trying to rush the fence (or at minimum claiming to) is not peaceful. Again imagine this happening to ANY other sovereign country that is not Israel, no one would say shit.
 

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GRtak;n3549445 said:
The response was not proportional, and that has been the point I have been trying to make all along. They clearly have a right protest( that is a natural right in my opinion), and an issue to protest.
They're not protesting, as has been proven already by Hamas' own stated goals for these events.

GRtak, if you won't shoot the invader approaching your house (as per my previous example), instead of "not making him a martyr" (your words), what would you do?
 

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You want to insist on playing that game? How would you protest if you were in the Palestinian's place? I think that says a lot about you too.
 

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GRtak;n3549462 said:
You want to insist on playing that game? How would you protest if you were in the Palestinian's place? I think that says a lot about you too.
It's not a game. You implied Israel was at fault. I countered as to why they are not in this case. So far you've done nothing to refute my position other than deflect and play to emotion.

Back to the hypothetical that you've failed to answer thus far:

He's at your door. He's already killed your chickens. He's lobbed molotovs onto your yard. He's written city council about how he wants you and your entire family dead.

What. Would. You. Do?

(You'll notice I don't impugn motive on your would be killer here, because guess what? It doesn't matter)

Is that the doorbell?
 
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LeVeL

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Unfortunately this won't stop many prominent politicians worldwide from supporting the terrorists.
 

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This bit of disturbing news just came across my desk. https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/451268

Dozens of Gazans wounded by Hamas fire

Dozens of Gaza residents have been wounded as Hamas forces have strongly suppressed demonstrations against the cost of living, during which live ammunition was fired at the demonstrators and violent means were used to disperse them.

The official Palestinian Authority news agency Wafa reported that armed Hamas operatives broke into residents' houses in Rafah, attacked a number of residents in the area of Abu Al-Jidyan Square in the Jabalya refugee camp, and carried out arrests east of Shaja'iya with massive gunfire. It was also reported that in Deir al-Balah, armed Hamas activists dispersed a women's demonstration calling for the release of detainees, broke into a private house in Khan Yunis and arrested residents of Beit Lahiya.
And this is the Palestinians admitting that they're killing or attempting to kill their own people for the crime of disagreeing with their government.
 

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This bit of disturbing news just came across my desk. https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/451268

And this is the Palestinians admitting that they're killing or attempting to kill their own people for the crime of disagreeing with their government.
It gets worse.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/44802/hamas-brutally-beating-reporters-covering-protests-hank-berrien

Reports out of Gaza indicate that not only has Hamas fired on its own citizens since protests against the Hamas regime started last Thursday, but 17 reporters were arrested and the U.N. envoy to Israel and the Palestinian areas said some were brutally beaten, according to The Times of Israel.

U.N. envoy to Israel and the Palestinian territories Nickolay Mladenov stated, ““I am particularly alarmed by the brutal beating of journalists and staff from the Independent Commission for Human Rights and the raiding of homes. The long-suffering people of Gaza were protesting the dire economic situation and demanded an improvement in the quality of life in the Gaza Strip. It is their right to protest without fear of reprisal.” He continued, “I call on all Palestinian factions to engage in earnest with Egypt in order to implement the Cairo Agreement (2017) in full. The United Nations will continue its efforts to avoid escalation, relieve the suffering of people in Gaza, lift the closures, and support reconciliation,” as the Jerusalem Postreported.

The Times of Israel noted that the Palestinian Journalists Syndicate acknowledged on Sunday that 17 reporters were arrested; ten were released, and four required hospital treatment. The syndicate added that security forces had beaten journalists. The Jerusalem Post added, “Eyewitnesses said that Hamas security officers also beat human rights activist Jamil Sarhan, who was taken to a hospital for medical treatment. They said that Baker al-Turkumani, a lawyer working for the Palestinian Independent Commission for Human Rights, was also beaten by Hamas officers.”

According to Gulf News, “Protests started in the two cities of Khan Younis and Deir Al Balah, where demonstrators burned tyres and blocked roads on Friday to protest against mismanagement, corruption and tax hikes by Hamas authorities, while a 32-year-old demonstrator set himself on fire … According to Palestine TV, Hamas kidnapped Rafat Al Qadra, director-general of the Gaza Strip’s radio and television station, from his home on Saturday night.”
According to The Algemeiner, 80 protesters were arrested in one 24-hour period over the weekend.

The Palestinian Non-Governmental Organizations Network said it “strongly condemned the campaign of arrests and aggression that the security forces launched in Jabaliya in northern Gaza against the right of dozens of citizens.”

Even leftist Amnesty International has condemned the brutality of Hamas’ actions, saying:


Hundreds of protesters have been subjected to beatings, arbitrary arrest and detentions, and torture and other forms of ill-treatment since 14 March, when Palestinians took to the streets across the Gaza Strip to protest against the rising cost of living and deteriorating economic conditions under the Hamas de facto administration.
“The crackdown on freedom of expression and the use of torture in Gaza has reached alarming new levels. Over the past few days, we have seen shocking human rights violations carried out by Hamas security forces against peaceful protesters, journalists and rights workers,” said Saleh Higazi, Deputy Middle East and North Africa Director at Amnesty International.
After summarizing the incidents over the last week, Amnesty International stated, “Meanwhile, several journalists across Gaza were beaten, detained and were forbidden from documenting the demonstrations.”

Strangely, none of the major media networks seem to be reporting on their websites about Hamas’ brutal crackdown on journalists.
 

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Enh. That I am a lot less disturbed by/have sympathy for. I would want to see a list of the journalists abused by Hamas and go through their prior work; given the amount of cheerleading, brown-nosing and even outright propaganda cock-sucking most of the media have given Hamas and the Palis in general over the past couple decades I would have no sympathy at all for those people on the list who were Hamas promoters before this incident who have now been beaten by their ideological crushes. Those who were actually objective, fair and unbiased reporters I would actually have sympathy for.

Same thing for the ICHR staff. ICHR is a UN agency, working hand in hand with another UN agency, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East - UNRWA for short. UNRWA is known to have not only allowed Hamas and the rest of the Palestinian entities to not only store weapons in UNRWA facilities but deploy and use them against Israel by firing them from UNRWA facilities. (And by allow, I mean they found out about it, looked appalled, and refused to do anything other than let the Palis continue to do so while releasing occasional verbal admonishments.) So, unless a particular ICHR staffer is known to have actually been unbiased and objective, don't have a lot of sympathy for them either.

Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

That said, that doesn't make what Hamas and the Palis did any less reprehensible in general. It just means that this time innocent people weren't the only ones being treated brutally when Hamas did what Hamas does. Hamas and company will hopefully be pounded until such time as they learn this is a bad idea. :p And no, I am not advocating US military attacks on Hamas. Not our circus, not our monkeys - and there are plenty of other people in the area that can and should do this for their own interests.
 
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